Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kinross · 04-29-2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid
Some information about Corporate Welfare (and perhaps where our ire should be placed)

"The $150 billion for corporate subsidies and tax benefits eclipses the annual budget deficit of $130 billion. It's more than the $145 billion paid out annually for the core programs of the social welfare state: Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), student aid, housing, food and nutrition, and all direct public assistance (excluding Social Security and medical care)."

http://www.corporations.org/welfare/
(I have not read the entirety of the site and cannot vouch for the accuracy of it.)

Brighid

Uh, Libertarians are against corporate welfare as much as they are against personal welfare.

As long as the state is able collect exessive taxes and redistrubute wealth there will be people and corporation in line looking for a piece of the pie.

fatherphil · 04-29-2003, 10:16 AM

how would we guarentee a 2 party system without it?

TMA68 · 04-29-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamSmith Uh, Libertarians are against corporate welfare as much as they are against personal welfare.

It may very well be the case that the majority of libertarians are as passionately opposed to corporate welfare as they are individual welfare, but that hasn't been my experience. Far too often, someone else has to bring up the issue of corporate welfare before they'll even address it in the first place, and when they do, their opposition to it usually comes as a half-hearted afterthought to a long-winded diatribe against individual welfare. This seems especially true in the Libertarian Party, which appears to be increasingly dominated by closet right-wing conservatives who, despite paying occassional lip service to abolishing corporate welfare, seem far less offended by taxpayer handouts to the rich than they are by taxpayer handouts to the poor.

Todd Altman

Jat · 04-29-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by meritocrat

Who? I'm not American.

Well, you sound just like one.

No, just your knowledge of politics. Still know what a natural right is?

Natural rights don't exist in nature. They only exist in the minds of men.

Jat · 04-29-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by meritocrat
I don't think so. You wouldn't know how I act or rationalise.

By your postings it is quite clear how you would act and how you "rationalise".

Jat · 04-29-2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
Personally, I am unutterably grateful to the UK welfare state that has kept my head above water for the last 18 months while I have been suffering from severe illness. I have had to spend half my savings, but my benefits have been an immense help. (I'm also extremely grateful to my parents, who put money aside for me as I was growing up.)

Now I am starting to get about again (in an NHS-provided wheelchair, no less), I am hoping to be able to start looking for work again soon. If I'm unable to find paid work, I'll do voluntary work & put something back into society that way.

And I'm sure I would've enjoyed crawling round the streets begging if we hadn't had a welfare state

Oh, I voted "no" on the poll.

TW

It is a good thing that you didn't have to depend on the compassion from the Libertarians on here. They probably would have told you that begging in the street is better than taking their more valuable tax dollars. Though, a begger can make more.

Jat · 04-29-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid
Some myths about immigration and welfare:

One widespread myth about recent immigrants is that they take advantage of our welfare state. However, most immigrants are not even eligible for public assistance when they first arrive. Legal immigrants who are not refugees are not allowed to receive public welfare benefits until they have lived here at least three years. Immigrants who are sponsored by a family member - roughly 70 percent of total legal immigrants - cannot receive public assistance until they have been in the U.S. for at least five years.
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba400/

Brighid

Gee, you don't want to keep confusing the Libertarians with the facts, do you now?

Loren Pechtel · 04-29-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid
Some information about Corporate Welfare (and perhaps where our ire should be placed)

"The $150 billion for corporate subsidies and tax benefits eclipses the annual budget deficit of $130 billion. It's more than the $145 billion paid out annually for the core programs of the social welfare state: Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), student aid, housing, food and nutrition, and all direct public assistance (excluding Social Security and medical care)."

http://www.corporations.org/welfare/
(I have not read the entirety of the site and cannot vouch for the accuracy of it.)

Brighid

I don't think the numbers are right--most of the farm bill was corporate welfare and it was bigger than that!

I do agree that corporate welfare is a big problem. However, I don't think it can be addressed until we have fixed our political system. So long as campaign contributions are the driving force corporate welfare will exist.

brighid · 04-29-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

I don't think the numbers are right--most of the farm bill was corporate welfare and it was bigger than that!

I think those numbers are based on older figures aren't current with say the past five years, so you might be right.

I also agree that the corporate welfare issue won't be fixed as long as big corporations have an unfair advantage in the legislative arena through their power and wealthy lobby groups.

One of the reasons I tend to point out corporate welfare is the lack of attention it gets from conservative and libertarian groups. All too often the finger is pointed at those single mothers immorally impregnated out of wedlock, raising those dark skinned babies as the root of all societies evils (and I can bet those who know me know where I stand on that ;P). I think in order to have a fair discussion about welfare we must discuss the "hand outs" corporations receive (which they do not have to pay back.)

I also feel it is important to address many of the myths surronding legal and illegal immigrants in this country, especially since I work with them on a daily basis. I am utterly flabbergasted at the "information" people believe about the poor and the immigrant (even if there are examples that fit the stereotypes.)

Brighid

Treacle Worshipper · 04-30-2003, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Jat
It is a good thing that you didn't have to depend on the compassion from the Libertarians on here. They probably would have told you that begging in the street is better than taking their more valuable tax dollars.
It certainly looks that way

No doubt they would then have complained about having to step over me as I lay on the ground.

Though, a begger can make more.

Not round here, I think

I really don't understand why some people oppose the welfare state. Don't they realise that bad things can happen that are totally beyond one's control? (Illness being a case in point.) I know people who would love to be able to work, but are physically incapable of it. When they could work, they paid their taxes like everyone else (as I did when I worked). Why shouldn't people benefit when they've already paid into the system?
If the government can find a few billion quid for war, they can find a few million to keep folk alive.
TW

View Poll Results: Should welfare states be scrapped?
Yes	15	27.27%
No	40	72.73%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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04-29-2003, 10:16 AM	#52
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	how would we guarentee a 2 party system without it?

04-29-2003, 10:45 AM	#54
Jat Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,311	Originally posted by meritocrat Who? I'm not American. Well, you sound just like one. No, just your knowledge of politics. Still know what a natural right is? Natural rights don't exist in nature. They only exist in the minds of men.

04-30-2003, 07:11 AM	#60
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	Originally posted by Jat It is a good thing that you didn't have to depend on the compassion from the Libertarians on here. They probably would have told you that begging in the street is better than taking their more valuable tax dollars. It certainly looks that way No doubt they would then have complained about having to step over me as I lay on the ground. Though, a begger can make more. Not round here, I think I really don't understand why some people oppose the welfare state. Don't they realise that bad things can happen that are totally beyond one's control? (Illness being a case in point.) I know people who would love to be able to work, but are physically incapable of it. When they could work, they paid their taxes like everyone else (as I did when I worked). Why shouldn't people benefit when they've already paid into the system? If the government can find a few billion quid for war, they can find a few million to keep folk alive. TW

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