7thangel

If we know that our prayers are 100% futile, it means we already know God's will; so why should we pray about it?

I am a christian who believes that man has no free will, and that man is predestinated of God. Our actions are controlled of God through the wisdom which he gave on everyone on us. So we pray as what wisdom dictates on us. Me, having given understanding of the will of God, my prayers are mere confessions and act of hopefulness of God's graces.

But unto those who are in the process of knowing God, showing prayers getting answered is leading them to know God, and such experiences are shaping them itself to understand that God is pleased on prayerful people, until they come to understand perfectly who God is.

So I hope you see the reasons behind praying.

Proxima Centauri

[COLOR=sea-green]One thing which would benefit the Roman Catholics would be if we spent less time discussing them here and concentrated more on dealing with the crazy Protestant Fundies, Cretionist Cretins etc. In most English speaking countries the different types of Protestants are far more numerous than the Roman Catholics. The only exception to this I know is Southern Ireland.
Why are we so much focussed on the Roman Catholics? Because Gemma Therese keeps us that way with the Catholics cr*p she keeps spouting. You say you love the Roman Catholic Church Gemma Therese?[/COLOR]

You need a little humility, Gemma Therese, so you can see what you arereally doing.

Perhaps she's really a Protestant Fundy troll.

99Percent

Prayer is not only useless but quite bad and even harmful.

You see, when you pray you null your mind with nonsense, you shut off reality. This is the reality you need to grasp and understand so you can then decide how to act according to your real possibilities and human abilities.

Extensive praying can lead to stupifying numbness. It softness and nullifies the mind making it ready to be brainwashed and manipulated by a pastor or religious leader. I have seen it happen first hand.

Praying in combination with chants and silly little rituals only makes it worse.

In the cult I once belonged, solicitations for money always came right after an extensive period of praying (30 minutes or more). It was simply amazing how ordinary people, not even strong believers, would donate their money when the leader of the congregation asked for it.

I suggest to theists to make a cold objective assessment of their praying practices and see just how utterly useless it is.

7thangel

That's unfair, I made my arguments about the importance of prayers, why generalise that prayers mean nonsense? Even one of the atheists said that there is a psychological impact for one who prays, so why take such a conclusion? Are we really being reasonable in here?

the_cave

Oh, no--and how terrible it would be if people went about performing purely meditative acts! How opressive.

Here are some examples of prayers, of all sorts, that even atheists perform, some of which are even not efficacious:

"Wish me luck!"
"God Save Our Gracious Queen"
"Olaaaaaay, olay olay olaaaaaay...ueber Deutschland, olaaaaaay!"
"I hope you can help me, doctor."
[crying]
[laughing]
[singing]
[dancing]
"Damnit"
"Go to hell!"
"If only I had been watching the road."
"I love you."

Should we eliminate these prayers, as well?

Now, some of these prayers are indeed somewhat efficacious, sometimes. Maybe prayer to a God is not efficacious, in the sense that the words themselves may have no effect upon a deity. I don't know. But they a) they may at least have an effect upon the suppliant, and b) it is nice to express our feelings. Indeed, prayer is generally an expression of the state of the person praying. Is that wrong? Nothing wrong with that. It is also indeed true that prayer is generally an opening up of possibility inside the suppliant--why shouldn't that be good? Maybe cults use it to get cash--but that's a problem with cults, not prayer. Prayer is an expression of interior emotion.
Agreed, surely it would be folly to rely soley on it to fix one's problems. Maybe many prayers do this, but not all. Don't even atheists have hopes that bad things won't happen?

99Percent

You mean secular arguments? I must have missed them, care to repeat them here?Because they do.I also said that prayer have a psychological impact - that it nullifies the mind and makes you subject to brainwashing and manipulation.Yes, atleast I make sense, not using gods or other irrational concepts in my arguments.

Kenny

Begging the question seems to be okay for you though.

Oxymoron

"Ooh! A sarcasm detector. What a useful invention that is".

Did I say there was anything wrong with meditation? (Hint: no). What I take issue with is pretending that prayer is anything more than meditation.

Theli

Mmmmmm... Mustard!

99Percent

Unfortunately for you, the burden of a rational or empirical proof of god lies on the believer. It is in fact the theist who is always begging the question.