MrDarwin

I have no desire to shake your faith, because your faith is of no consequence to me whatsoever. I've just been trying to figure out how so many people can believe two or more mutually exclusive things at the same time.

Okay, here's my "zinger", although it's a pretty simple yes-or-no question:

Is it possible for God to do anything that has unintended consequences?

ex-preacher

Is it your understanding that you have adequately answered the original "zinger" at the start of this thread?

sidewinder

But why have we failed when we ask for proof, for evidence to back your assertions? What's wrong with asking for evidence? As I stated, I don't think it's the intention of any non-Christian here to shake your "young Faith." We're engaging you in debate. Whatever you decide about these debates and how they affect your beliefs is up to you.

RJS

I believe something along the following lines would be close to what I was intending to describe -

It would be eternal life on Earth, without the possiblity of dying and without any of the blessings God has bestowed upon the earth - mostly emanating from the existence of Love. Populate the earth with 20 billion of the most depressed nihilists you can think of and then make them exist forever - and then remove every single ounce of brotherly love. That is my belief, which is what you asked for.

lpetrich

As if one's (human) parents had had nothing to do with one's coming into existence. I ought to be groveling before them, I suppose, but I don't.

And, RJS, what makes you sure that God isn't a "she"?

lpetrich

But that ought to be celebrated as being sent off to heaven!

lpetrich

However, there is a lot of genocide viewed as praiseworthy in the Bible:

After concluding that most of humanity is wicked beyond redemption (isn't he capable of reforming anyone?) God decides to slaughter all but 8 of humanity in Noah's Flood. Also, we learn that the Promised Land is for the Israelites, and not for the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, or the Jebusites (Deuteronomy 7:12); these peoples are to be exterminated without mercy. The Israelites proceed to do just that (if we are to believe their own account); they kill the Amorites of Heshbon (Numbers 21:25, Deuteronomy 2:34), the followers of Og (Numbers 21:34,35), practically all the people of Jericho (Joshua 6), all the people of Makkedah, Libnah, Lachish, Gezer, Eglon, Hebron, and the surrounding landscape (Joshua 10:28-40), the people of Gaza, Askelon, and Ekron (Judges 1:18-19), 10,000 Moabites (Judges 3:29), 10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites (Judges 1:4), "all the hosts of Sisera" (Judges 4:16), 120,000 Midianites (Judges 8:10), the Philistines (1 Samuel 14:12,13,20), the Ammonites (1 Samuel 11:11), the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:3,7), etc. etc. etc. About this last, we are told that Samuel found fault with King Saul because he did not try to kill all the sheep and cattle; killing all the people evidently was not enough. There is an interesting exception, we find that the Israelites were supposed to kill all the men and married women of the Midianites; the unmarried women who have not gone to bed with any man the Israelites can keep for themselves (Numbers 25:16,17, 31:7,8). All this Ethnic Cleansing was the "Final Solution of the Canaanite Question". Or at least so we are told. Not only Canaanites were to suffer, consider a lamentation of being exiled to Babylon, where we learn that "Babylon will be destroyed. Happy is the one who pays you back, who takes your babies and smashes them against a rock" (Psalm 137). That this activity is contrary to a certain one of the "Ten Commandments" nobody seems to notice.

Hans

RJS

"What do you believe the complete absence of your god is like, and why?'

You answered the above question as follows:

You have answered what you believe it would be like, but why?

RJS

My example is close to my belief, because it is about the most miserable existence I can imagine, other than perpetual torture (which I know many equate with Hell). It is an existence with absolutely no hope and no exit - it is perpetual misery - but one that was "chosen" by the participant. That person chose to reject God (this last statement of course will really get you going). Nobody chooses to "burn in Hell" forever, but people choose to reject God, and they get what they wanted. I have chosen to live eternally with the Creator of all things - the God of Love.

brighid

You have chosen to believe in a system that tells you that you may or may not reside in eternal love with this God. Even the Christian is not guaranteed acceptance into God’s good graces and Heavenly Fold. You do not know that you will be among the chosen – the one hundred and some thousand people who will make it into Heaven. There are more people then that in my town alone, so it seems your chances are pretty slim! Arrogance is one of the “sins” pretty well frowned upon in your Holy Book and more then a few men, said to be much greater than yourself have been condemned to that Hell Fire for it. So, you might just want to be a little bit more humble because you cannot know the will of your Unknowable God.

RJS, you seem to have time to answer certain questions but you still fail to address a vast majority of those that have been presented in the three previous pages. If you are hear to question and learn then it would be appreciated if you took a little time over the next few days and constructed some answers to the questions posited to you. One at a time, no one here expects any miracles. I and lpetrich have both asked you how do you know your God is not a She/They/It? I think that would be easy enough to answer. So why don’t you start there.

Brighid