Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Peter Kirby · 07-27-2002, 02:17 AM

Vorkosigan writes: As for 2:2. I don't think it is luck. Narkinsky's analysis asks: what does the author need to know to hit a date of 28 AD? But that's the wrong question. The real question is: what does the author need to know to hit Pilate's reign? And that answer is: nothing that wasn't common knowledge.

Now that I think about it a bit more, I don't think that the author of John was guessing or estimating at all. The reason for this is: why would an author say 'forty-six years'? If he were estimating? If it were not important? Because he liked to live dangerously and write things with the knowledge that his guess could be off, even when he didn't have to make a guess for his narrative to work? No, I don't think that the author was calculating, even with imperfect knowledge. I think it is a happy coincidence. Given the fourth evangelist's penchant for numeric symbolism, I think that the value of Adam's name is the most plausible explanation for the origin of the figure that we have yet thought up. The fourth evangelist likely took this to be the actual age of Jesus, as seen from the "not yet fifty" remark. This implied both a lucky coincidence and an unfortunate error, which would be about par for a number picked out of the symbolical hat. The lucky coincidence came when the author of John equated Jesus with the Temple and said that the Temple had been under construction for 46 years at the time. That works out fine for the Temple, but the unfortunate error comes when the figure for the age of Jesus is compared to the other Gospels. Luke says that Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. The infancy narratives are usually interpreted as putting Jesus in the last decade of Herod's reign. So, starting with a symbolic number, John both pulls a Homer and makes a boo-boo, which should not be too surprising.

best,
Peter Kirby

Clarice O'C · 07-27-2002, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peterkirby:


Frank Schleritt writes: "The motif of the transformation of water into wine is not attested unequivocally in ancient texts. Rather, only a sudden presence of wine is presupposed. Cf. the two following examples: 'When one struck the rock with the thyrsos, immediately a cool spring arose, and on striking the narthex on the ground, the god's sweet wine flowed out' (Euripides, The Maenads, 704-7). '. . . The priests bring three vessels to the count and set them down empty (viz. in a building) . . . The next day . . . they find the vessels filled with wine' (Pausanias, Description of Greece, VI 26, 1-2). However, in the Old Testament there are narratives about the transformation of water into some other matter; cf. Ex. 7:19-22 (Moses turns water into blood); Ex. 15.23-25 and II Kings 2.19-22 (each time undrinkable water is transformed into drinkable water). Moreover, it should be noted that according to many Old Testament texts the time of salvation will be marked not least by an inexhaustible supply of wine (cf. e.g. Amos 9.13f.; Hos. 2.24; Zech. 8.12; see also Mark 14.25)." (Jesus after 2000 Years, p. 435)

Raymond Brown writes: "Only the Cana miracle has no parallel [in kind] in the Synoptic tradition. Thus, Bultmann and others suggest strong pagan influence in the formation of the story, especially the influence of the cult of Dionysius, the god of vintage. The Dionysius feast was celebrated on January 6th, while the Cana reading became part of the Epiphany liturgy celebrated on the same date. During the feast the fountains of the pagan temples on Andros spouted wine instead of water." (The Gospel According to John, v. 1, p. 101)

Raymond Brown continues: "While this evidence is interesting, it is scarcely conclusive for the origins of the Johannine narrative. We must remember that both the dates and motifs of Christian feasts were often deliberately selected to replace pagan feasts. Moreover, it may be legitimately asked if the evangelist, who has shown himself to be working within the general framework of the traditional miracle stories of Jesus in six of his seven narratives, would be likely to introduce a seventh narrative from an extraneous tradition? As for the uniqueness of the miracle, is changing water into wine so different from the multiplication of loaves? Both have echoes in the Elijah-Elisha tradition which supplies the OT background for Jesus' miracles, probably because only in this cycle of stories does the OT narrate numerous miracles done on behalf of individuals. The multiplication of the loaves is anticipated in II Kings iv 42-44, and perhaps the changing of water to wine to supply the wedding party may be compared with Elijah's miraculous furnishing of meal and oil in I Kings xvii 1-16 and Elisha's supplying of oil in II Kings iv 1-7. All of these are miracles which answer an unexpected physical need that in the particular circumstances cannot be satisfied by natural means. Another obstacle to the thesis that the Cana story was borrowed from Hellenistic miracle legends is the modest and discreet way in which the miraculous is introduced into the narrative - so untypical of the atmosphere of the Hellenistic wonders. John does not tell us how or when the water became wine but reveals the miracle almost as an aside." (The Gospel According to John, v. 1, pp. 101-102)

I'm wondering what you all think of Raymond Brown's arguments against pagan influence in the Cana story with his reliance only on the Hebrew scriptures in relation to what Frank Schleritt and Bultmann wrote.

As usual, it seems that we need to look to outside sources for evidence of pagan influence, if the evidence is indeed reliable. See Schleritt's quote from Euripides (484-406 BCE) and Pausanius (170 CE); the latter may have written before John.

I think that Freke and Gandy, also, present good arguments for pagan influence in the Cana story on their pp. 38 and 124. They write p. 38:

"The night of January 5 was also the time when Dionysus was believed to miraculously change water into wine," p. 38. Here F & G footnote H. Lietzmann, (1961), "Ibid. Lietzmann, an orthodox Church historian, relates the numerous connections between the wine miracles of Jesus and Dionysis and then declares: 'No explanation is needed to show how this very day came to be adopted for commemorating the marriage at Cana when Jesus performed the miracle which used to be performed by Dionysis.' On this matter we disagree--an explanation 'is' needed." F & G go on, "According to Pliny [c. 112 CE], on the island of Andros a stream of wine flowed in the temple of Dionysus and continued for seven days, but if samples of it were taken out of the sanctuary they immediately turned to water. We also hear that on Naxos a spring miraculously issued forth fragrant wine ... ." More on water into wine and then, "Pausanias assures us that citizens and foreigners alike had vouched under oath for the reliability of this report," footnote: "Otto, W. F. (1965), 98."

F & G, p. 38, "According to myth, the miracle of turning water into wine took place for the first time at the marriage of Dionysus and Ariadne," footnote, "Ibid, see also Lietzmann, op. cit., 314." The same miracle is attributed to Jesus at the wedding feast in Cana," footnote, "John 2 v 1-11." "In the fourth century CE Epiphanius relates similar miracles still happening on January 6 and claims to have drunk of a spring that had issued forth wine. But he no longer attributes the miracles to Dionysus, but to Jesus. For Epiphanius, such miracles now occurred 'at the hour when Jesus ordered the water to be taken to the master of the feast and he changed their water into wine,'" footnote, "Lietzmann, op. cit, 321."

On p. 124 F & G write, "According to the Gnostic sage Heracleon (date?), this motif of a sacred marriage also appears in the Jesus story as the marriage feast in Cana where Jesus, like Dionysus before him, changes water into intoxicating wine. This miracle, Heracleon tells us, symbolizes that 'divine marriage,' which transforms what is merely human into the divine," footnote, "Hoffman, R.J. (1987), 133, note 59."

On p. 61, to make a long story short, F & G summarize, "Jesus is equated with bread and wine, as is Osiris-Dionysus," and, "Jesus' disciples symbolically eat bread and drink wine to commune with him, as do the followers of Osiris-Dionysis." These two sentences are expanded upon in their chapter on "Diabolical Mimicry" and are addressed more fully on pp. 48-50 as being prefigured by Euripides, Adonis, the Egyptian Book of the Dead literature, Mithras, and Attis.

Frank Schleritt wrote:

"Moreover, it should be noted that according to many Old Testament texts the time of salvation will be marked not least by an inexhaustible supply of wine (cf. e.g. Amos 9.13f.; Hos. 2.24; Zech. 8.12; see also Mark 14.25)." (Jesus after 2000 Years, p. 435)"

My comment on this is that if salvation is so terrific I don't see why it needs to be accompanied by "by an inexhaustible supply of wine."

Clarice

Clarice O'C · 07-27-2002, 01:19 PM

I would like to suggest that perhaps the wine is symbolic of salvation. And the quotes that Peter provided seem to say that Jesus is the bridegroom, and the temple is Jesus' body.

Quote:

Francis J. Moloney writes: "The words of the steward imply that the bridegroom is responsible for this remarkable fullness of good wine. The next time a bridegroom appears in the story (cf. 3:29) it will be in the words of John the Baptist, who speaks of Jesus as the bridegroom, and himself as the friend of the bridegroom. At one level of the narrative the steward instructs the bridegroom on common sense, but on another level the encounter raises a question about the source of the fullness provided by the bridegroom. 'The steward here seems to be wholly unaware of the supply of wine, of the shortage or of the drawing of water. He merely states that the wine is excellent (kalos) and that the bridegroom's actions are not those of ordinary men' (b. Olsson, Structure and Meaning 62). In v. 4 the mother of Jesus was told that the hour had not yet come. The steward seems to think that it has, as he tells the bridegroom, who has provided the wine, that he has kept the good wine until now (heos arti). But Jesus announced at the beginning of the account that the hour has not yet come (v. 4: oupo hekei). However rich the gift of wine may have been, the larger story of Jesus points beyond this particular story. This is an important moment, but not the final moment, in the revelation of Jesus." (The Gospel of John, p. 69)

Raymond Brown writes: "Scholarly interpretations to the contrary, John does not put primary emphasis on the replacing of the water for Jewish purifications, nor on the action of changing water to wine (which is not described in detail), nor even on the resultant wine. John does not put primary emphasis on Mary or her intercession, nor on why she pursued her request, nor on the reaction of the headwaiter or of the groom. The primary focus is, as in all Johannine stories, on Jesus as the one sent by the Father to bring salvation to the world. What shines through is his glory, and the only reaction that is emphasized is the belief of the disciples." (The Gospel According to John, v. 1, pp. 103-104)

In the following verse the bridegroom has supplied the wine and the best wine last which is contrary to what is usually done. John writes, "but you have kept the good wine [salvation] until now [last]," 2:10.

Quote:

Raymond Brown writes: "... John says that the temple is Jesus' body ... ."

Quote:

Francis J Moloney writes: "... The steady use of the future tense in the verbs of vv. 17, 19-20 promises that Jesus' passion for the ways of his Father will lead to his being consumed, and that after a very short time he will raise up the Temple of his body (v. 21). The presence of God in the Temple [Jesus] will be perfected by the revelation of the Temple of the body of Jesus. At a time when there is no longer a Temple in Jeruslem, believing readers of the Fourth Gospel will experience the presence of the crucified yet risen Jesus as their Temple.'"

Quote:

Robert Kysar writes: "... The reasons for positing a post-70 date include the view of the Temple implicit in 2:13-22. Most would argue that the passage attempts to present Christ as the replacement of the Temple that has been destroyed." (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, v. 3, p. 918)

Quote:

Raymond Brown writes: "As an indication that John's interpretation of Jesus as the new Temple is not strange in the framework of Gospel theology, we may recall the saying attributed to Jesus in Matt xii 6: '[I tell you, something] greater than the Temple is here.'" (The Gospel According to John, v. 1, p. 125)

Also to point out John 2:21, "But he [Jesus] spoke of the temple of his body."

Clarice

Joe Mendoza · 07-27-2002, 02:57 PM

At this time I'm only going to deal with the first half of this chapter.

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In the Gospel of John wine is only mentioned in two places, in chapter 2, at the wedding in Cana, and in chapter 19, Jesus' crucifixion. (There is no wine mentioned in John's Last Supper, although water is mention, I shall deal with that later). There is also a brief aside to wine in chapter 4. Below are the places in John where wine is mentioned.

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John 2:3
When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."

John 2:9-10
When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now."

John 4:46
Therefore He came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum.

John 19:29-30
A jar full of sour wine was standing there; they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, " It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

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The mother of Jesus is also appears in only two places in the Gospel of John, in chapter 2, at the wedding in Cana, and in chapter 19, Jesus' crucifixion. There is also a brief aside to his mother in chapter 6.

I find it interesting that in the Gospel of John the mother of Jesus is never named. In this gospel she is not called Mary.

Below are the places in John where the mother of Jesus is mentioned.

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John 2:1-5
On the third day there was a wedding Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine." And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."

John 2:12
After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His [brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days.

John 6:42
They were saying, " Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"

John 19:25-27
Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene, When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

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The facts that wine and mother appear only in these two chapters (beside the two brief asides) leads me to believe that these two chapters are connected. The wedding at Cana is somehow connected to the crucifixion. Of added interest, water also appears in the crucifixion scene.

Besides wine and His mother, the third element of importance in this story is Water. Water is mention much more often in the Gospel of John than either wine or Jesus' mother.

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John 1:26
John answered them saying, " I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know.

John 1:31
"I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water."

John 1:33
"I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'

John 2:6-9
Now there were six stone waterspouts set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. Jesus said to them, "Fill the waterpots with water." So they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it to him. When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom,

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:23
John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized--

John 4:7-15
There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink." For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."

John 4:28-29
So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men, "Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?"

John 4:46
Therefore He came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum.

John 5:2-9
Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porticoes. In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, waiting for the moving of the waters; for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted. A man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, "Do you wish to get well?" The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me." Jesus said to him, "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk." Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk.

John 7:38
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

John 13:5
Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and blood and water came out.

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Jesus is identified with water. Not with wine, with water. In chapters 4 and 7 he is identified with "Living Water". In chapter 5 he is compared to the water that heals. In chapter 13, the Last Supper, he pours water into a basin and washes the disciples' feet, a reflection of the baptism, the water mentioned in chapter one.

And finally, in chapter 19, water flows out of Jesus.

There is one final element in this story that must be mention, and that is Cana. Cana is only mention in three places in the Gospel (or for that mater in the whole bible). In chapter two, in the brief aside in chapter 4, and in 21 where we find that Nathanael was from Cana. Nathanael is also interesting, he is that disciple who is only mention in John, none of the other Gospels mentioned him, in fact in the whole of the bible he is only mentioned in two places, in chapter 21 and in chapter 2.

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John 2:1
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;

John 2:11
This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

John 4:46
Therefore He came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum.

John 21:2
Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples were together.

John 1:46-50
Nathanael said to him, " Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!" Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." Nathanael answered Him, " Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these."

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What does this all mean?

Who is his mother? The mother represents the material world.

What is Cana? Cana is the town of Nathanael.
Who is Nathanael (name means gift of god)? He is the one who sat beneath the tree. He is the Buddha. Or more precise, the bottashiva, the compassionate Buddha who returns to this material world. So Cana is another symbol for the material world.

Jesus is the living water, the spirit, the pneumatic. The spirit becomes incarnate in the material world (at his mother's request he changes himself in to wine, an intoxicant, a creator of illusion). At first the wine is very good wine, but, as with all things in the material world, the wine grows old and becomes vinegar. Even the best of wines cannot last; even the best illusions eventually degenerate. And in the end, after all has been destroyed, water reappears.

The story of Cana (when combined with the crucifixion story) tells us that the living water is in disguise, it is not what it seems to be, it seems to be an intoxicant, a creator of illusion, but the illusion will be destroyed and the living water will reappear.

-Joe

Clarice O'C · 07-27-2002, 06:53 PM

Hi Joe,

Very nice first post

and it brings up a question for me. You wrote:

Quote:

Jesus is the living water, the spirit, the pneumatic. The spirit becomes incarnate in the material world (at his mother's request he changes himself in to wine, an intoxicant, a creator of illusion).

You are adding to the symbolism that I also see in John.

I wrote:

"I would like to suggest that perhaps the wine is symbolic of salvation. And the quotes that Peter provided seem to say that Jesus is the bridegroom, and the temple is Jesus' body."

Do you think my theory that the wine is symbolic of salvation is correct because you say:

Quote:

At first the wine is very good wine, but, as with all things in the material world, the wine grows old and becomes vinegar. Even the best of wines cannot last; even the best illusions eventually degenerate. And in the end, after all has been destroyed, water reappears.

If wine is symbolic of salvation then, from what you have said, salvation wouldn't be lasting (as is supposed) and my theory would be wrong. And so what do you think the wine symbolizes?

Clarice

Joe Mendoza · 07-31-2002, 10:48 PM

Hi Clarice,

You asked

Do you think my theory that the wine is symbolic of salvation is correct ... If wine is symbolic of salvation then, from what you have said, salvation wouldn't be lasting (as is supposed) and my theory would be wrong. And so what do you think the wine symbolizes?

I don't know rather your theory that the wine is symbolic of salvation is correct, but I don't think it fits into the theory I've been working on, although it might. I am still trying to work through what the wine is symbolic of, but I tend to think that is symbolic of the illusions of the material world. Now this illusions can be wonderful, like the best of wines, or they can be horrid as the sour wine. But either way they are illusions.

Or maybe not illusions exactly, but something of a lesser truth within which a higher truth is hidden.

The Valentinians (an early group of Gnostic Christians) held to a three tired system of Hylic-Psychic-Pneumatic. Usually translated as Body, Soul and Spirit. I do not think that 'soul' means the same thing as we usually think of when we usually think of the word soul, I think that what they meant by "Psychic" or "Soul" was the social body that we all develop. The Psychic is or soul is concerned with matters of social rules, maters of right and wrong. It is what makes us human, what allows us to function in society.

Now the Mother represents the entry into the material world. And She also represents the Material world itself. I've also been told that the number 6 represents the material world. The world was created in 6 days. So the 6 waterpots would be another representation of the material world.

When the Mother says that wine is needed, Jesus says that it is not yet his time, and then makes the wine anyway. I think Jesus is saying it is not yet time to show his true nature and so he hide it inside the wine, a veil of illusion. It is very good wine, or a very good "lesser truth", but not the full truth.

Who was Jesus hiding from? I think he was hiding from the "ruler of the feast".

So I think that the "ruler of the feast" represents the Psychic, the rule maker, the one who decides what is good or bad. Notice that he is the one who pronounces the wine as being "good".

So I think that the mother represents the Hylic, the material world,
And the Ruler of the feast represents the Psychic, the social world,
And Jesus represents the Pneumatic, the spiritual world.

Well so much for my rambling.

-Joe

Clarice O'C · 08-04-2002, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
I am intrigued by the wine motif ... I am puzzled as to why the cleansing of the temple shows up so early in John ...

Me too. One of my main interests in John 2 is to crack the code of meanings that John had in mind. I thought that along with the quotes from various scholars that Peter has provided in his first post in this thread that I would see what others have to say, and so I looked in some older books that I have as Peter provided the best of the newer ones. Anyway, I don't have any one book that tells what all of the symbols mean (does Brown or anyone else do it?) but this seems important towards understanding Chapter 2 and the rest of the gospel.

(Some of my interpretive extractions from the various authors are probably crude but I know you'll figure it out.}

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In _The Life of Christ_ by Frederic W. Farrar, D.D., F.R.S., (1874), Vol. I, p. 162, Farrar says that he doesn't know who the bridegroom is but remarks in a footnote:

"The notion that the bridegroom was Simon the Canaanite, arises from a complete, but not unnatural, error about his name. An improbable tradition followed by St. Jerome and St. Bonaventura, and adopted by the Mahometans (D'Herbelot, s.v. 'Johanes'), represents that the bridegroom was the Evangelist St. John."

And so we have one vote that the bridegroom was St. John himself.

Bridegroom = St. John

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_The New Testament: A Critical Introduction_, by Edwin D. Freed, (1986), p. 207:

Wine = Christianity

Water = Judaism

Temple = "main symbol of the old order, Judaism, is replaced by Jesus' resurrection"

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_The Book of the Acts of God_, G. Ernest Wright & Reginald H. Fuller, (1957), p. 393:

Cana "... indicates that the old Jewish order of purifying is to be replaced by the new and final purification."

"Then comes the cleansing of the temple: the old order of purification replaced, there will follow a new order of worship, in which the temple at
Jerusalem is replaced by the temple of Christ's body."

Cana = the old Jewish order

Temple (Jewish) = old Jewish order of purification

Temple = Christ's body

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_The Four Gospels: An Introduction_, by Bruce Vawter, C.M. (1967), p. 86 (even though the woman in chapter 2 is not named, Vawter assumes it):

Mary = "the whole people of God, the Church... the new Eve, the mother of all the living"

Bridegroom = Jesus of the messianic kingdom

Jewish Feasts = Institutions prefiguring Christ

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_Understanding the New Testament_, by Howard Clark Kee, (first ed. 1957), p. 159:

Wine and water: "for John, the best wine is available now (2:10), not in an age to come. That is, the joys of the new age are already available for the faithful. The second level of meaning is purely symbolic, and centers on the linked factors of water and wine. Although one cannot be certain, the explicit contrast with the Jewish rites of purification (John 2:6) implies that Christian purification--that is, baptism--is being
symbolized. And the climax of the story, the new wine, could be seen as pointing to the other Christian sacrament, the Eucharist." So:

Wine = joys of the new age now and the Eucharist

Water = Jewish--purification; Christian--baptism

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Peter provided the rest of the books and quotes that I'll take a shot at. If you need fuller text, please refer to Peter's first post in this thread.

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Frank Schleritt:

"according to many Old Testament texts the time of salvation will be marked not least by an inexhaustible supply of wine."

Wine = time of Salvation

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R.V.G. Tasker writes: "Jesus [or the writer -ed.]
wished, through the symbolism of the water turned into wine, both to expose the inadequacy of Judaism as a religion of salvation, and to initiate His disciples into the necessity for His own redeeming death ... waterpots of stone were set there, the evangelist states, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews ... The water contained in these vessels was used for the ceremonial washing indicative both of the nature
and of the weakness of Pharisaism."

Water = Judaism inadequate for salvation

Wine = Salvation

Stone waterpots = Purification of the Jews

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Francis J. Moloney writes:

"The water in the jars, used for Jewish purification rituals, will be transformed into a 'sign' (c. 11: semeion) in and through which the doxa will be revealed ... "... transformation of water from six jars used for the Jewish rites of purification into a good wine was a first 'sign' (cf. 2:11) of the fullness of the gifts of God that perfects the former gift of God to Israel."

Water = Sign in and through which the doxa will be revealed

(What does "doxa" mean?)

Bridegroom = Jesus (who provided the wine)

Jewish Temple = Old Jewish order

New Temple = Jesus' body replacing old temple

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D. Moody Smith:

"If Jesus himself is the good wine, his appearance at the culmination of salvation history is symbolized by its emergence out of the waters of Jewish purification: the last, not the first, is best."

Good wine = Jesus/salvation

Water = Jesus' emergence out of the waters of Jewish purification

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Robert Kysar:

"Most would argue that the passage attempts to present Christ as the replacement of the Temple that has been destroyed."

Temple = Christ

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Raymond Brown:

New Temple = Jesus' body

Wine = Replaces the water used for Jewish purifications

**Christian thought about the spiritual Temple from Brown:

(a) the Christian Temple or house of God is the Church
(b) the Temple is the individual Christian

A passage like II Cor vi 16 hovers between (a) and (b).

(c) "the Temple is in heaven - this is the tradition of the apocalyptic works (II Bar iv 5), where the earthly Temple and Jerusalem are only copies of the heavenly. Rev xi 19 and Heb ix 11-12 have this interpretation."

-----------------

The results of the above exercise are as follows:

-----------------

Bridegroom = St. John
Bridegroom = Jesus of the messianic kingdom
Bridegroom = Jesus (who provided the wine)

------------

Wine = Christianity
Wine = joys of the new age now and the Eucharist
Wine = Time of Salvation
Wine = Salvation
Wine = Replaces the water used for Jewish purifications
Good wine = Jesus/salvation

------------------

Water = Judaism
Water = Jewish--purification, Christian--baptism
Water = Judaism inadequate for salvation
Water = Jesus' emergence out of the waters of Jewish purification
Water = Sign in and through which the doxa will be revealed

---------------------

Temple (Jewish) = old Jewish order of purification
Temple = Christ's body
Jewish Temple = Old Jewish order
New Temple = Jesus' body replacing old temple
New Temple = Jesus' body
Temple = "main symbol of the old order, Judaism, is replaced by Jesus' resurrection"

--------------------

Cana = the old Jewish order

Mary = "the whole people of God, the Church... the new Eve, the mother of all the living"

Jewish Feasts = Institutions prefiguring Christ

Stone waterpots = Purification of the Jews

---------------------

So, trying to make a connection between the wedding at Cana and the destruction of the temple scene in Chapter 2, maybe it's Jesus replacing the old Jewish order and ushering in the new age of God's order/salvation in his only begotten son. Perhaps this is early in John's gospel because it sets the stage for the rest of his book?

Am I close? Would someone take a stab at saying it better or changing it if it's not correct.

Best,
Clarice

Clarice O'C · 08-04-2002, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Mendoza:
The Valentinians (an early group of Gnostic Christians) held to a three tired system of Hylic-Psychic-Pneumatic. Usually translated as Body, Soul and Spirit. I do not think that 'soul' means the same thing as we usually think of when we usually think of the word soul, I think that what they meant by "Psychic" or "Soul" was the social body that we all develop. The Psychic is or soul is concerned with matters of social rules, maters of right and wrong. It is what makes us human, what allows us to function in society.

Hi Joe,

Since the gospel of John is said to be highly gnostic, if that's true do you think that ...

Hylic - Body
Psychic - Soul
Pneumatic - Spirit

... are or can be represented in John's language? Body and spirit are already there. Would "body" be Jesus' body and "spirit" be the holy spirit or some such thing? "Soul" is in John once, in 12:27.

Thanks,
Clarice

Clarice O'C · 08-06-2002, 01:03 PM

If Jesus is the bridegroom in John 2 and 3, who is the bride? God? See John 3:29, "It is the bridegroom to whom the bride belongs." And I'm wondering if there is any significance to the fact that "bridegroom" isn't used again in John after Chapter 3.

Thanks,
Clarice

Toto · 08-06-2002, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Clarice O'C:
If Jesus is the bridegroom in John 2 and 3, who is the bride? God? See John 3:29, "It is the bridegroom to whom the bride belongs." And I'm wondering if there is any significance to the fact that "bridegroom" isn't used again in John after Chapter 3.

Thanks,
Clarice

The Bride is typically viewed as the Church in that analogy. It's very common.

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07-27-2002, 02:17 AM	#11
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Vorkosigan writes: As for 2:2. I don't think it is luck. Narkinsky's analysis asks: what does the author need to know to hit a date of 28 AD? But that's the wrong question. The real question is: what does the author need to know to hit Pilate's reign? And that answer is: nothing that wasn't common knowledge. Now that I think about it a bit more, I don't think that the author of John was guessing or estimating at all. The reason for this is: why would an author say 'forty-six years'? If he were estimating? If it were not important? Because he liked to live dangerously and write things with the knowledge that his guess could be off, even when he didn't have to make a guess for his narrative to work? No, I don't think that the author was calculating, even with imperfect knowledge. I think it is a happy coincidence. Given the fourth evangelist's penchant for numeric symbolism, I think that the value of Adam's name is the most plausible explanation for the origin of the figure that we have yet thought up. The fourth evangelist likely took this to be the actual age of Jesus, as seen from the "not yet fifty" remark. This implied both a lucky coincidence and an unfortunate error, which would be about par for a number picked out of the symbolical hat. The lucky coincidence came when the author of John equated Jesus with the Temple and said that the Temple had been under construction for 46 years at the time. That works out fine for the Temple, but the unfortunate error comes when the figure for the age of Jesus is compared to the other Gospels. Luke says that Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. The infancy narratives are usually interpreted as putting Jesus in the last decade of Herod's reign. So, starting with a symbolic number, John both pulls a Homer and makes a boo-boo, which should not be too surprising. best, Peter Kirby

07-27-2002, 02:57 PM	#14
Joe Mendoza Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 10	At this time I'm only going to deal with the first half of this chapter. ************************************************ In the Gospel of John wine is only mentioned in two places, in chapter 2, at the wedding in Cana, and in chapter 19, Jesus' crucifixion. (There is no wine mentioned in John's Last Supper, although water is mention, I shall deal with that later). There is also a brief aside to wine in chapter 4. Below are the places in John where wine is mentioned. ********************************************** John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine." John 2:9-10 When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, and said to him, "Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now." John 4:46 Therefore He came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum. John 19:29-30 A jar full of sour wine was standing there; they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, " It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. ********************************************** The mother of Jesus is also appears in only two places in the Gospel of John, in chapter 2, at the wedding in Cana, and in chapter 19, Jesus' crucifixion. There is also a brief aside to his mother in chapter 6. I find it interesting that in the Gospel of John the mother of Jesus is never named. In this gospel she is not called Mary. Below are the places in John where the mother of Jesus is mentioned. ********************************************** John 2:1-5 On the third day there was a wedding Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine." And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it." John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother and His [brothers and His disciples; and they stayed there a few days. John 6:42 They were saying, " Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" John 19:25-27 Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene, When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household. ********************************************** The facts that wine and mother appear only in these two chapters (beside the two brief asides) leads me to believe that these two chapters are connected. The wedding at Cana is somehow connected to the crucifixion. Of added interest, water also appears in the crucifixion scene. Besides wine and His mother, the third element of importance in this story is Water. Water is mention much more often in the Gospel of John than either wine or Jesus' mother. ********************************************** John 1:26 John answered them saying, " I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. John 1:31 "I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water." John 1:33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' John 2:6-9 Now there were six stone waterspouts set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing twenty or thirty gallons each. Jesus said to them, "Fill the waterpots with water." So they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it to him. When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom, John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized-- John 4:7-15 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink." For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw." John 4:28-29 So the woman left her waterpot, and went into the city and said to the men, "Come, see a man who told me all the things that I have done; this is not the Christ, is it?" John 4:46 Therefore He came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum. John 5:2-9 Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porticoes. In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, waiting for the moving of the waters; for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted. A man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, "Do you wish to get well?" The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me." Jesus said to him, "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk." Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. John 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" John 13:5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and blood and water came out. ********************************************** Jesus is identified with water. Not with wine, with water. In chapters 4 and 7 he is identified with "Living Water". In chapter 5 he is compared to the water that heals. In chapter 13, the Last Supper, he pours water into a basin and washes the disciples' feet, a reflection of the baptism, the water mentioned in chapter one. And finally, in chapter 19, water flows out of Jesus. There is one final element in this story that must be mention, and that is Cana. Cana is only mention in three places in the Gospel (or for that mater in the whole bible). In chapter two, in the brief aside in chapter 4, and in 21 where we find that Nathanael was from Cana. Nathanael is also interesting, he is that disciple who is only mention in John, none of the other Gospels mentioned him, in fact in the whole of the bible he is only mentioned in two places, in chapter 21 and in chapter 2. ********************************************** John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; John 2:11 This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him. John 4:46 Therefore He came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a royal official whose son was sick at Capernaum. John 21:2 Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples were together. John 1:46-50 Nathanael said to him, " Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!" Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." Nathanael answered Him, " Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these." ************************************************ What does this all mean? Who is his mother? The mother represents the material world. What is Cana? Cana is the town of Nathanael. Who is Nathanael (name means gift of god)? He is the one who sat beneath the tree. He is the Buddha. Or more precise, the bottashiva, the compassionate Buddha who returns to this material world. So Cana is another symbol for the material world. Jesus is the living water, the spirit, the pneumatic. The spirit becomes incarnate in the material world (at his mother's request he changes himself in to wine, an intoxicant, a creator of illusion). At first the wine is very good wine, but, as with all things in the material world, the wine grows old and becomes vinegar. Even the best of wines cannot last; even the best illusions eventually degenerate. And in the end, after all has been destroyed, water reappears. The story of Cana (when combined with the crucifixion story) tells us that the living water is in disguise, it is not what it seems to be, it seems to be an intoxicant, a creator of illusion, but the illusion will be destroyed and the living water will reappear. -Joe

07-31-2002, 10:48 PM	#16
Joe Mendoza Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 10	Hi Clarice, You asked Do you think my theory that the wine is symbolic of salvation is correct ... If wine is symbolic of salvation then, from what you have said, salvation wouldn't be lasting (as is supposed) and my theory would be wrong. And so what do you think the wine symbolizes? I don't know rather your theory that the wine is symbolic of salvation is correct, but I don't think it fits into the theory I've been working on, although it might. I am still trying to work through what the wine is symbolic of, but I tend to think that is symbolic of the illusions of the material world. Now this illusions can be wonderful, like the best of wines, or they can be horrid as the sour wine. But either way they are illusions. Or maybe not illusions exactly, but something of a lesser truth within which a higher truth is hidden. The Valentinians (an early group of Gnostic Christians) held to a three tired system of Hylic-Psychic-Pneumatic. Usually translated as Body, Soul and Spirit. I do not think that 'soul' means the same thing as we usually think of when we usually think of the word soul, I think that what they meant by "Psychic" or "Soul" was the social body that we all develop. The Psychic is or soul is concerned with matters of social rules, maters of right and wrong. It is what makes us human, what allows us to function in society. Now the Mother represents the entry into the material world. And She also represents the Material world itself. I've also been told that the number 6 represents the material world. The world was created in 6 days. So the 6 waterpots would be another representation of the material world. When the Mother says that wine is needed, Jesus says that it is not yet his time, and then makes the wine anyway. I think Jesus is saying it is not yet time to show his true nature and so he hide it inside the wine, a veil of illusion. It is very good wine, or a very good "lesser truth", but not the full truth. Who was Jesus hiding from? I think he was hiding from the "ruler of the feast". So I think that the "ruler of the feast" represents the Psychic, the rule maker, the one who decides what is good or bad. Notice that he is the one who pronounces the wine as being "good". So I think that the mother represents the Hylic, the material world, And the Ruler of the feast represents the Psychic, the social world, And Jesus represents the Pneumatic, the spiritual world. Well so much for my rambling. -Joe

08-06-2002, 01:03 PM	#19
Clarice O'C Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hollywood, FL Posts: 408	If Jesus is the bridegroom in John 2 and 3, who is the bride? God? See John 3:29, "It is the bridegroom to whom the bride belongs." And I'm wondering if there is any significance to the fact that "bridegroom" isn't used again in John after Chapter 3. Thanks, Clarice

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