Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Douglas J. Bender · 11-06-2002, 08:41 PM

Starboy,

Quote:

The argument is simple.

Religious – accept supernatural explanations over natural.

Rational – accept natural explanations over supernatural.

The argument is simple - and without merit. Since when was it decided that "rational" means never accepting supernatural explanations over natural ones? Talk about assuming the conclusion true.

Quote:

When a scientist does good science they are rational.

True. At least, one would hope so. (Maybe, when a scientist is doing "good science", they are also having an emotional and highly irrational argument with their spouse.

)

Quote:

When anyone does religion they are irrational.

This is an unsupported, unjustified, claim. Besides, what does "does religion" mean, anyway? Is concluding "design" or "evidence for God" an instance of "doing religion"? Is acknowledging the validity of prophecies in the Bible "doing religion"? If so, in what sense are these things "irrational"?

Anyway, try being a bit more rational and objective in making your points and posts - your emotional outbursts and ad hominem attacks don't make for good conversation. If you want to attempt a genuine, reasoned discussion, then show that you can participate in one.

In Christ,

Douglas

Douglas J. Bender · 11-06-2002, 08:47 PM

Starboy,

Quote:

I think that if the scientific revolution has taught us anything it is that there is no such thing as "truth".

Is that a statement of truth (i.e., a true statement), or not? If not, then it is untrue; if so, then it is self-contradictory, and thus untrue. In any case, it is an untrue statement. Is that how science works?

In Christ,

Douglas

fcuk · 11-06-2002, 08:56 PM

I find it very interesting that Christians believe that, to be truly intellectual, one must be able to abandon reason and "think" with the heart. That has always amused me. The Christians around here say that in order to be truly strong in your faith in God, you can't put your faith in rationality. You have to stop thinking that it a virgin birth is impossible, and simply believe that it happened. That sort of thing.

Douglas J. Bender · 11-06-2002, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Me: Also, many eminent scientists were and are Christians - so, the argument some of you are presenting would say that these people are automatically unthinking and unreasoning, or happen to be so just in the case of their metaphysical beliefs?

DigitalDruid: There are and were devout Hindu scientists who are even Nobel Laureates. Also, when during the Dark Age the christian world plunged into mysticism and superstition, the Arab scientists and astronomers preserved and advanced science. Do you accept these as arguments for Hinduism or Islam?

No, just as I did not present "many eminent scientists were and are Christians" as an argument for Christianity.

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DigitalDruid: It's silly to think that because someone is good in one field, he or she excels in others too.

Not necessarily "silly" - "silly" would be to think that because someone is incompetent in one field, he or she excels in others. However, it would be invalid to conclude that because someone is good in one field, they excel in others too - it may or may not be the case that they do. But, it is quite reasonable to think that if someone excels in one field which requires great analytical and reasoning skills, they might be good at or excel in another field which requires the same skills.

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Do you go to a world-class economist when you are down with fever? Or would you automatically take him or her to be an expert in Astronomy? Why is metaphyisics any different?

Not unless that economist claimed to have thoroughly studied fevers or astronomy, in which case, if they happened to be a "world-class" economist, I would tend to think that their views in those other fields were well-reasoned and researched. Why would metaphysics be any different?

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There is no need to treat them as automatically unthinking and unreasoning,...

That's been my whole point, in refutation of Starboy's stereotyped and ignorant claims.

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...but we have to consider their opinion on its own merit - not because they are famous scientists. Even Galileo was wrong about the origin of the tides.

I agree completely. Could you please explain this to Starboy? He seems to think that I am incapable of rational thought.

In Christ,

Douglas

Debbie T · 11-06-2002, 09:32 PM

Quote:

I guess "opening your heart" is a metaphor for "think with your emotions, not with your brain."

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Debbie T ]

Paddy · 11-06-2002, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debbie T:


Open your heart - close your brain.

I disagree. I believe that "open your heart" is synonymous with "open your mind". I was once a christian, and I believe that i possessed an open open heart/mind. It was actually through reason that I first became a christian (however, it has subsequently been through reason that i have repudiated my faith), but I always kept an open "mind", as I still do.

It is in the closing of the heart/mind that one falls prey to erroneous mind sets. Focusing on only 'facts' and information that support one's argument or ideas/ideals, and closing the mind to equally valid, yet contradictory, information/'facts' will inevitably lead to one holdind erroneous beliefs.

Open the heart - open the mind.

Paddy

Debbie T · 11-06-2002, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy:


I disagree. I believe that "open your heart" is synonymous with "open your mind". I was once a christian, and I believe that i possessed an open open heart/mind. It was actually through reason that I first became a christian (however, it has subsequently been through reason that i have repudiated my faith), but I always kept an open "mind", as I still do.

It is in the closing of the heart/mind that one falls prey to erroneous mind sets. Focusing on only 'facts' and information that support one's argument or ideas/ideals, and closing the mind to equally valid, yet contradictory, information/'facts' will inevitably lead to one holdind erroneous beliefs.

Open the heart - open the mind.

Paddy

Hi Paddy, I was trying to be funny and when I reread what I wrote I decided to edit it. Guess you caught it to soon.

babelfish · 11-07-2002, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
Starboy,

This is an unsupported, unjustified, claim. Besides, what does "does religion" mean, anyway? Is concluding "design" or "evidence for God" an instance of "doing religion"? Is acknowledging the validity of prophecies in the Bible "doing religion"? If so, in what sense are these things "irrational"?

Anyway, try being a bit more rational and objective in making your points and posts - your emotional outbursts and ad hominem attacks don't make for good conversation. If you want to attempt a genuine, reasoned discussion, then show that you can participate in one.

In Christ,

Douglas

Mentally ill people used to be thought to be demonically possessed. Thunder and lightening were believed to be gods hammering on big anvils. The earth was thought to be created as the center of the universe, around which God caused all the celestial bodies to revolve.

Disease was thought to be caused by "bad humors" floating throught the air.

Can you please provide an example of a natural phenomenon that was later proven to be, in fact, supernatural?

Thank you.

Starboy · 11-07-2002, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:
Anyway, try being a bit more rational and objective in making your points and posts - your emotional outbursts and ad hominem attacks don't make for good conversation. If you want to attempt a genuine, reasoned discussion, then show that you can participate in one.

Douglas Bender:

Please give examples of the proported behaviour of which you accuse me and yet you display frequently. Examine your posts. This last post is a rarity for you.

Starboy

NOGO · 11-07-2002, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Bender
I would agree that "being intellectual and using reason as a guide" is not SUFFICIENT to lead a person to God. It is NECESSARY that one have a humble and open heart in order to come to God, something most who are "intellectual" do not have.

Which God is that?

"humble and open heart" to me is synonymous to disposition to submit, to lower oneself, to crawl like a worm in the hope that God will take pity and make one's life meaningful and eternal.

... and you are right I completely lack this thing.

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11-06-2002, 08:56 PM	#33
fcuk Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: your bathtub Posts: 50	I find it very interesting that Christians believe that, to be truly intellectual, one must be able to abandon reason and "think" with the heart. That has always amused me. The Christians around here say that in order to be truly strong in your faith in God, you can't put your faith in rationality. You have to stop thinking that it a virgin birth is impossible, and simply believe that it happened. That sort of thing.

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