Seraphim

by andy_d

From a leaflet given to me by some Muslims on the street. Where am I going wrong?

Don't Muslims view the whole world as the representation of god?

I did say my knowldege was limited, so i'd ask you to leave out the insults and try educating me instead.

Sorry ... didn't meant to make it sound like an insult. I'll get carried away sometimes.

Don't trust leaflets, Pal ... they can write whatever they want to write in there as long as it pleases non-Muslims into following them. You must learn things from other resources - books and personal experience and make your own assumptions.

My notion of them is simple - Muslims are the MOST arrogant, ignorant and close-minded bunch on the face of the Earth. If you compare them to Christians, they will pale you in comparisons.

They have the worst concept of God I have ever read anywhere.

To them, whatever that is NOT written in their holy book is a a lie and usually place there by some group out to conquer them (usually Jews).

They say non-Muslims worship idols and deities YET they place Muhammad (founder of Islam) at the same level as a diety, fighting to death if necessary (and most of them time, it does) if someone insulted Muhammad. They seems to forget that the fact that Muhammad was a human and humans prone to mistake.

And what most riddiculos of them all is the name of Islam itself. They say Islam means "Peace" in Arabic YET history shows us that Muslims have not lived in a peaceful society in the last 1,400 years unless they were under some other non-Muslim government and lived as minority (as the case is in China since 14th century).

Read and mingle with them, bub and make your own assumption. For me, Islam is a cult and they don't represent God.

bagong

The leaflet you received may have been from a Sufi organisation. They espouse a concept of Wahdat-al-Wujud "Oneness of Existence", which has at times been interpreted as pantheistic.

From a mainstream Muslim point of view, this is a gross violation of Tawhid, the central concept of Islamic theology, which states that God is One, has no associates, and is absolutely distinct from His Creation.

Sufis who are woried about mainstream Islamic acceptance stress that Wahdat-al-Wujud is not the same thing as pantheism, however. See the section on Wahdat-al-Wujud in this link for a refutation of the idea that Sufism=pantheism.

Seraphim

by bagong

The leaflet you received may have been from a Sufi organisation. They espouse a concept of Wahdat-al-Wujud "Oneness of Existence", which has at times been interpreted as pantheistic.

From a mainstream Muslim point of view, this is a gross violation of Tawhid, the central concept of Islamic theology, which states that God is One, has no associates, and is absolutely distinct from His Creation.

Sufis who are woried about mainstream Islamic acceptance stress that Wahdat-al-Wujud is not the same thing as pantheism, however. See the section on Wahdat-al-Wujud in this link for a refutation of the idea that Sufism=pantheism.

Hmmm .... I think I understood something which had been puzzling for for about three years now ....

Couple of years back, there was this forum a friend of mine drag me into and there, due to interactions with others (most of them were Muslims), I had learn about a Muslim scholar who spoke about a concept of Micro and MacroUniverse (something like Gaia). There was some links about him on the Net and I did enjoy reading about it.

Now, the same friend is busy with a Fanfiction which is related to Gaia and he asked me once a few months back to find and print those articles by that Muslims scholar and I looked for it on the Net but couldn't find anything. I thought it was odd since Muslims attend to make mole hills about small discoveries and those concepts were really good.

I think I understand now why I couldn't find it now. They must have removed it from their servers. Muslims (especially Syiahs) don't like some concept which put their God in league with anything physical (or anything which Man can understand for that matter).

bagong

There are hundreds of Sufi websites on the internet, so I highly doubt that "the Muslims" would shut down just that one site. Also, Shi'a Islam has historically been quite closely linked to Tasawwuf (Sufism). It is the Salafi (Wahabis) who are most opposed to Sufis, who they call "grave worshippers".

I think you underestimate the importance of Tasawwuf in the Islamic world. In Indonesia, it is very much part of the mainstream. Same thing in India, the Maghreb, and West Africa. Together that's the vast majority of the world's Muslim population! They are not just some persecuted minority. Maybe Malaysia is different; it seems that the Dakwah movement is very strong there.

Seraphim

by bagong

There are hundreds of Sufi websites on the internet, so I highly doubt that "the Muslims" would shut down just that one site. Also, Shi'a Islam has historically been quite closely linked to Tasawwuf (Sufism). It is the Salafi (Wahabis) who are most opposed to Sufis, who they call "grave worshippers".

Well ... I don't know about that but I did had some hard time finding the facts for my friend.

I think you underestimate the importance of Tasawwuf in the Islamic world. In Indonesia, it is very much part of the mainstream. Same thing in India, the Maghreb, and West Africa. Together that's the vast majority of the world's Muslim population! They are not just some persecuted minority. Maybe Malaysia is different; it seems that the Dakwah movement is very strong there.

And you overestimate it.
Areas like Indonesia, India and Africa is the place where local customs and beliefs before Islam gets combine with Islamic beliefs.

For some Muslims sitting in Arab or some countries like Malaysia, such beliefs which mixed with Islam and local beliefs is somewhat "haram" (not accepted).

But one thing came out of this site. There were a few geeks in another forum I was active in some time ago who claimed that Islam is another branch of Hindusm. This concept could prove AGAINST that claim.

bagong

Sufism is not just a development that arose from mixing Islam with more mystical religions - all the greatest saints and founders of the major Sufi sects were Arabs who lived and preached at the great centers of Arab/Islamic civilization like Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, Cordoba, etc. The best of them were fully trained in Islamic theology and jurisprudence, and took great care to justify their beliefs in Qur'aanic terms (see for example Ibn 'Arabi's Aqidah "Testament of Faith", which is completely acceptable to any Sunni).

Although the Saudis woud like us to think differently, Tasawwuf is as ancient and rich in scholarly traditions as the legalistic Islamic schools. Do not allow the Saudis to define Islam for you - the vast majority of the world's Muslim population accept the validity of the Sufi path and honor the Sufi saints - including in Arab countries like Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Morocco. To suggest that all those people are not "real" or "pure" Muslims is to buy into the extremists' propaganda. Anyway, this is a subject best discussed in a post of its own, as Sufism isn't quite the same as pantheism!

Seraphim

by bagong

Sufism is not just a development that arose from mixing Islam with more mystical religions - all the greatest saints and founders of the major Sufi sects were Arabs who lived and preached at the great centers of Arab/Islamic civilization like Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, Cordoba, etc. The best of them were fully trained in Islamic theology and jurisprudence, and took great care to justify their beliefs in Qur'aanic terms (see for example Ibn 'Arabi's Aqidah "Testament of Faith", which is completely acceptable to any Sunni).

Completely acceptable to any Sunni? Funny ... I'd opened a thread about this in another forum packed with Muslims (most of them are from Sunnah Al Jamaah - Sunnis for short) and so far, none of them seems to bother about it.

http://forum.cari.com.my/viewtopic.php?t=52694

Although the Saudis woud like us to think differently, Tasawwuf is as ancient and rich in scholarly traditions as the legalistic Islamic schools. Do not allow the Saudis to define Islam for you - the vast majority of the world's Muslim population accept the validity of the Sufi path and honor the Sufi saints - including in Arab countries like Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Morocco. To suggest that all those people are not "real" or "pure" Muslims is to buy into the extremists' propaganda. Anyway, this is a subject best discussed in a post of its own, as Sufism isn't quite the same as pantheism!

Where does this Tasawwuf originated from? Al Quran? The Old Testament? New Testament?

bagong

Completely acceptable to any Sunni? Funny ... I'd opened a thread about this in another forum packed with Muslims (most of them are from Sunnah Al Jamaah - Sunnis for short) and so far, none of them seems to bother about it.

I don't see any hostility to Sufis there - one person even said that it is a legitimate interpretation of tawhid, which is the Sunni way of saying that it qualifies as orthodox Islam. There mostly seems to be confusion about what your intention was by posting that article.

In any case I was refering specifically to the "the Testament of Faith", the introduction to the Futuhat al-Makkiya, Ibn 'Arabi's masterpiece and probably the most important Sufi work. Even people who are convinced that Ibn 'Arabi is a heretic will be hardpressed to find anything to criticise in that text.

Where does this Tasawwuf originated from? Al Quran? The Old Testament? New Testament?

I don't know much about the origins of Sufism, and they may well have been influenced by Byzantine Christian monastics, but overall it is definitely Qur'aanic in inspiration. Muhammad was a meditating recluse before he was a prophet, and many of the Qur'aan's passages describing the transcendent glory of Allah have a mystic feel to them.

Seraphim

by bagong

I don't see any hostility to Sufis there - one person even said that it is a legitimate interpretation of tawhid, which is the Sunni way of saying that it qualifies as orthodox Islam. There mostly seems to be confusion about what your intention was by posting that article.

Hostility doesn't usually means open confrontation only. It also can add "Ignoring the Question" type of hostility.

I have asked them a question about Islam according to that article - the three form of existence as stated on the article. No one seems to bother about it - whether to accept OR deny. In my book, that is hostility or plain ignorance.

In any case I was refering specifically to the "the Testament of Faith", the introduction to the Futuhat al-Makkiya, Ibn 'Arabi's masterpiece and probably the most important Sufi work. Even people who are convinced that Ibn 'Arabi is a heretic will be hardpressed to find anything to criticise in that text.

That doesn't mean they will accept it either ... does it?
The facts that such facts didn't show up a lot in regular discussion and such (via TV, live discussions, articles in the Net or in printing materials etc) shows that such facts is not something they could swallow or spit out.

You're from Indonesia, you should have heard the old saying "Luah Mati Bapa, Telan Mati Emak". They cannot swallow the crap nor can they split it out either.

I don't know much about the origins of Sufism, and they may well have been influenced by Byzantine Christian monastics, but overall it is definitely Qur'aanic in inspiration. Muhammad was a meditating recluse before he was a prophet, and many of the Qur'aan's passages describing the transcendent glory of Allah have a mystic feel to them.

Bottomline here is this .... this concept probably something Muhammad thought of before he become a Prophet due to influence of various cultures which could have mingled with Arabs during that time. I'm not surprise since Gaia-like concept did appear around that time from Greeks, Egypt and even from India and since Muhammad was a merchant, he could easily absorb such influence.

Problem now is it is not stated in Al Quran - sermon given by Allah via Muhammad (at least as far as I know, it wasn't stated in there). I'm not sure whether it is stated in Al Hadith or not. Dilema now could be whether they accept something Muhammad MAY had mentioned OR will they ignore it if it is not stated in Al Quran?

omnia

Hmm, well, I don't mean to interrupt the Islam/Sufi discussion, but since I identify myself as a pantheist I'd like to answer the questions people have put forward. Well, from _my_ point of view anyway.

I agree that there's alot of similarities between atheism and pantheism. There's no belief in scriptures or gods as classically defined. To take a cynical view, it's really just another filler for an emotional void: you can take consolation in the fact that the divine is in you, and while there is no set afterlife, there's still the possibility I suppose of your consciousness returning to some universal consciousness or force (I personally like that idea much better than christian heaven, but I'm quite agnostic w/r an afterlife).

IMO, the nature of the universe is miraculous. No, sorry, bad word. Miraculous implies supernatural, and it's more that I find the behavior and existence of the universe to be awe-inspiring. Physics, biology, the "simple" laws of nature produce such complexity; that's what I find awe-inspiring, and what makes me define myself as a pantheist. I wouldn't say I consider the universe et al to have its own consciousness, but I suppose I view it as having its own spirit.

Does that make me a theist? I'm not sure. I don't subscribe to any objective morality, I don't think "god" wants anything from us, I'm not a determinist by any means. But I think the universe is more than a sum of its parts and behaviors. Pantheism is not religion but spirituality. It requires an attitude rather than a belief. I suppose it could be considered a subset of atheism, but I think it's more of a worldview set in religious terms.

(BTW, this is my first post, but I've been lurking for a while, so [color="royal blue"]HI![/color] )

cum deo omnia redicula sunt