Keith Russell

Albert said:
"The Incarnation was not a kind of reductionism, whereby the Creator was reduced to the status of a creature. It was a uniting of two essences, where human nature and divine nature became the hypostatic union."

This still poses some problems. If 'God' is infinite and omnipresent, then 'God' would be everywhere, and 'in' everything.

Given that, nothing could have a 'separate' essence apart from 'God's'.

(Not to mention the question of what caused the 'Creator' to be reduced.)

Keith.

net2002

The Incarnation was not a kind of reductionism, whereby the Creator was reduced to the status of a creature. It was a uniting of two essences, where human nature and divine nature became the hypostatic union


We've dealt with this hocus bogus of incarnation before.

Consider a much simpler case than God/Man. Can one be fully male and fully female? I don't think so; if one had all the male attributes and all the female attributes (which I don't think one could, by the way), one would be defined as something else, not "fully male and fully female."

Now could your god be "fully male and fully female" at the same time?

net2002

The parts of God are not in need of each other for existence.
According to standard, universally accepted, Christian theology:
The Father is the source of existence. The Father begot the Son. The Spirit procedes from the Father through the Son.

Why didn't the son beget the father?

Lets get to the point - if X, Y and Z were
contingent entities, then how can contingent + contingent + contingent = non-contingent? - since, if all three were necessary beings *on their own*,they would have no need for the other two. If X was a necessary being, say,it would necessarily exclude Y and Z (necessity is a sufficient condition for excluding Y and Z). The eternity of three necessary beings causes more
problems because, should such a thing be the cause, they would be three*distinct* beings - i.e. the scenario would be tritheistic

net2002

Note that given suficient imagination and flare in translation and interpretation we can use Christian terminology for these things and pretend to find similarities...
Of course the fact that ancient pagans in all probability never thought any such things and if they did almost certainly borrowed them straight from the earlier Christians, is clearly irrelevant.


--The film universal soldier is a mishmash of Robocop and terminator. The trinity follows the same theme

Tercel

Because the son is defined as the one begotten by the father.

I have no idea what you are meaning by the words necessary and contingent. Personally I would say that the Father is necessary and that the Son and Spirit are probably contingent. I have no idea why you think that the necessity of the Father would "necessarily exclude" the Son and Spirit.

Tercel

~shrugs~ Well that was one that didn't.

To rephrase what you just wrote in terms of Christian terminology:
The divine essence is not identical to a divine Person, and Jesus is a divine person, then it follows that the divine essence is not identical to Jesus.
Christian theologians have been saying the same thing for well over 1000 years...

Except that a polytheist would insist on 3 essences, a Christian would insist on one.

Of course there's a difference. In polytheism the gods tend to bicker and argue and work against each other. They have different bodies and different plans. The Christian God doesn't do any such thing but works in perfect unity. For all practical purposes he appears as one being to external observors.

SRB

That's not true. Sentences of the form "Is P identical to a part of Q?" make perfect sense.

I don't think that talk of essences is at all meaningful here. Maybe you can cure me of that. How would the Doctrine of the Trinity be any different if it were instead claimed that the three members always agreed each other, but each had its own distinct "essence," and yet the three still formed a single committee, called "God"?

It is not an essential part of polytheism that gods disagree with each other or that they have bodies. I recommend consulting a dictionary if you dispute this.

Again you ungrammatically refer to three sentient beings as "he." You say that the three beings that make up the Trinity are indistinguishable to external observers. That does not seem to be so. Jesus died on the cross; the Father didn't. Jesus was once a baby boy; the Holy Spirit wasn't. The disciples were supposed to have been filled with the Holy Spirit, not with the Father. The Bible depicts the members of the Trinity having conversations with other, and even asking each other questions! If the Bible is taken seriously then your claim that the members of the Trinity are indistinguishable is untenable.

SRB

hinduwoman

Trinity can be understood only mystically, not rationally.
Frankly it is polytheism that has managed to portray itself as monotheism through fancy explanations.

The wierd bit is that Xians are not willing to allow Hindus the same explanations for their many gods, even though monism --- as it is called --- is far older than the concept than Trinity.

Infidelettante

In some pagan traditions Goddess is understood to be a triune deity composed of Maiden, Mother and Crone. These aspects mirror the life cycle of women as they move through the stages of youth when she is not sexualy active, motherhood when she is fertile and creative, and old woman when she no longer concieves but posseses the wisdom of long life.

The key to understanding this trinity is movement. The deity is seen as moving through the three aspects becoming one and then another and another still. In one sense the three aspects never exist at the same time but the deity displays the aspect required to experiance or interact with a particular event or condition of creation.

Could such an understanding be applied to the Christian God? The Father was needed to raise the nation from which the Savior came. This took thousand of years and was not easily accomplished as a reading of OT would show. The Father was required to be tough and ruthless in his dealings with the chosen people and those who resisted his will.

After the work of the Father was done the Son began his work to present Gods' plan to humanity. So we see godhead move to become the earthly Jesus who, by his life and death and resurrection brought the hope of salvation to a sinful Earth. After the ascention the godhead moved to become the Holy Spirit who guides the Christian faithful in their service to God.

Each aspect of the triune deity can be viewed as an office which the deity occupies as needed. We don't have a true trinity but rather one deity who presents three faces.

JT

Colander of Truth

1, one time, only once, is nothing at all like a trinity of one.