Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Buffman · 08-08-2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kassiana

Except for the wasted time during your life
--Some of us don't think it's a waste of time to do things we enjoy, even if the Gods themselves were to turn out to be untrue (which they won't, but I'll admit to the possibility). Is it a waste if I, the one living that life, think it isn't? I don't think so.

Why are religious believers so fearful of the unknown and death?
--Why are atheists so fearful of the unknown and death? (Unfair, unhealthy generalization met with another unfair, unhealthy generalization) Personally, I don't have a firm belief in an afterlife and I wouldn't mind if there isn't one. I'm enjoying my life as a Pagan theist and I'll continue to enjoy it even if the Summerlands don't exist after death.

You have been a member of these forums long enough to know that most of the discussions here are aimed at those who wish that everyone believed as they did...and attempt to convince others of the righteousness of their beliefs. Personally I don't care what their religious faith beliefs are just as long as they don't attempt to impose them on me, especially through governmental edict.

However, I do not agree with your contention that fear of the unknown and death are "unfair, unhealthy" generalizations. That is like claiming that our genetically passed senses and drives are irrelevant. I believe that fear of the unknown and death are perfectly normal, healthy and vital factors in the survival of our species; and that it is the conditioned belief in the supernatural that can be the most unhealthy factor when placed under control of the Master Manipulators. I do not consider your world views as a threat to mine and support your right to them...even if I think they are without evidencial merit.(History and biology would appear to be far more supportive of my contention than yours.)

jdlongmire · 08-08-2004, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffman

Is it also a central tenet of your faith beliefs not to eat when hungry, drink when thirsty, breath to stay alive? It is a central tenet of my philosophy to initially trust once but always verify. I learned at an early age that religious experts seldom know much about the natural sciences and, unfortunately, foster a considerable amount scientific and philosophical clap-trap. However, during my studies of psychology/sociology/education, I became interested in the experiments of Ivan Pavlov. Guess what? From there, it was just a hop-skip-jump to recognize that humans can be, and have been, conditioned to believe fairy tales. This became a very important personal insight in my specialized, psychological survival, training classes. So I would recommend that you do some additional study concerning human biology and chemistry, with particular emphasis on the brain-mind interface, before attempting to determine what is or isn't a "strawman."

Shifting the burden of proof
The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

from the logical fallacies page

Quote:

Buffman: Why are religious believers so fearful of the unknown and death?

jdlongmire · 08-08-2004, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffman

I must have missed where you told everyone about the origins of your supernatural god. I feel rather confident that I haven't missed reviewing most of the evidence presented by believers over the last 2,000 years in an attempt to justify their superstitions/myths/actions in this so-called Christian god. As a matter of information, I have taken the time and effort to review most of the ancient creative stories offered as proof of the existence of the supernatural...not just the ones about the so-called divine entity you have chosen to worship.

The question was not, "Have you examined all the evidence?" It was, "What if you are wrong?"

Quote:

Thank you for taking the time to provide your selected biblical quotes as evidence to support your conditioned faith beliefs. However, when it comes to not fearing death, it would seem that some of the Islamists can't wait to enact their tenets. I am not a religionist and yet I don't fear death. How do you suppose that came to be? I know! Through trained critical reasoning, I came to respect the finality of death and therefore the wonderful gift of life as a sentient being. It also helped me to appreciate the value of all life and to be damn sure that I was rationally and morally justified in snuffing it out. Even so, at one point in my life, I was fully prepared, professionally conditioned and trained, entrusted with the physical responsibility, and felt morally justified to snuff out hundreds-of-thousands of human lives with a single weapon. That, my worshipful friend, will cause some pretty serious introspective examinations of the so-called tenets provided by others...especially verse quoting religionists.

No, thank you for the patronizing and dismissive tone... :thumbs:

Buffman · 08-08-2004, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

Shifting the burden of proof
The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

from the logical fallacies page

(Isn't that a great site?)

Hmmmmm. I agree. Let me see now. Didn't someone claim that there was a supernatural world? Aren't godheads and miracles part of a supernatural world? Isn't worship of that godhead and belief in miracles part of religious exercises? My position is that there is no supernatural world when discussing religious faith beliefs. Can I prove that there isn't one. Of course not! Can you prove that there is? Of course not! So the issue of shifting the burden of proof would appear to be relative to the person making the "original" claim. We are both well aware of that.

Don't you recall my reply to "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence?" I maintain that "The absence of (verifiable) evidence IS the evidence of absence." Now what?

reprise · 08-08-2004, 01:11 PM

If the sniping continues, this thread will not.

breathilizer · 08-08-2004, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

The question was not, "Have you examined all the evidence?" It was, "What if you are wrong?"

Do you guys ever listen to yourselves and ask, "Has my position been shot down numerous times before?"

You're betting on Pascal's Wager. How about this: What if you are wrong? I suppose you'll focus on death and say, "So what?" But divert your attention to life. If you are wrong, then you are wasting this life and probably annoying the hell out of a lot of people. Also, you are supporting a practice which has led to the hindrance of many scientific/medical advances, and is still continuing to do so. You support, willingly or not, the vicious hate crimes against blacks, gays, and muslims. You support pushing religious ideologies onto other people through the government, no matter what your personal view on it is.

So ask again... What if we are wrong? Well if we are wrong, then so be it. Hopefully whatever God exists will be a merciful God, such as the one you claim exists. If he isn't, then so what? Odds are he won't be merciful to you either, seeing as how you having killed any infidels today. But if you are wrong, you are supporting the slow deterioration of individuality and human progress, again, whether you feel like it or not.

jdlongmire · 08-08-2004, 01:20 PM

What, what? Other than complimenting you on your ability to dance around your error, I'm done.

Buffman · 08-08-2004, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reprise

If the sniping continues, this thread will not.

Shucks! I certainly apologize to anyone who took personal offense at my world views. I have almost always found honest and candid discussions to be rewarding. I especially appreciate a good thrust and parry thread. Anything that helps to stimulate the grey matter can't be all bad...even if it is all wrong.

breathilizer · 08-08-2004, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

What, what? Other than complimenting you on your ability to dance around your error, I'm done.

What error?

never been there · 08-08-2004, 02:48 PM

My two favourite questions:

"Are you a Christian?"
No.
"Are you Jewish?"
No.
"Not Muslim!"
No.
"You aren't...one of those....pagans, are you?"
No, I'm an atheist.
"But which God don't you believe in?"

And this one, coming from a pair of doornockers early one Sunday morning.
"But if there's no God, how can you live knowing this is all there is?", with a sweeping gesture of the arm over a beautiful weekend morning, the air still fresh from the night's rainfall, with the sun glinting off the dripping wet trees as the birds begin the dawn chorus.

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08-08-2004, 01:11 PM	#85
reprise Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sydney Posts: 3,997	If the sniping continues, this thread will not.

08-08-2004, 01:20 PM	#87
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	What, what? Other than complimenting you on your ability to dance around your error, I'm done.

08-08-2004, 02:48 PM	#90
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	My two favourite questions: "Are you a Christian?" No. "Are you Jewish?" No. "Not Muslim!" No. "You aren't...one of those....pagans, are you?" No, I'm an atheist. "But which God don't you believe in?" And this one, coming from a pair of doornockers early one Sunday morning. "But if there's no God, how can you live knowing this is all there is?", with a sweeping gesture of the arm over a beautiful weekend morning, the air still fresh from the night's rainfall, with the sun glinting off the dripping wet trees as the birds begin the dawn chorus.

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