Freethought & Rationalism Archive

capsaicin67 · 02-11-2003, 01:53 PM

Turning to matters overseas, the president said America's enemies "hate the thought [that] . . . we can worship the Almighty God the way we see fit."

Mmm hmmm. We can....? I mean, we can!

As long as we do worship A god. Oh....and that its the xtian one, that is!

No, what (one of the things, not the only thing) they really hate is that we are predominantly of a different religion than they are-----the same thing GWB hates about them.

This is the 900lb gorilla [no offense to other primates]in the room when it comes to peace and stability around the world, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular. The solution is a secular, united, state with a new script celebrating and making the new state a monument to peace and justice and the ability to have humility and resolve enormous differences in the interest of saving lives and maturing as a species, culture, individuals......
But that's the one thing that cannot ever, never, be proposed nor advocated for from a true position of global "moral" leadership. Because the politiwhackos in our country don't even get it themselves, nor want it for our own govt any longer! That screws them up around the world because they can't advocate for sanity whilst using insanity at home for their own agendas.
Selfish jerks. Makes me almost hope there is a hell [presuming the god in charge of it were just].......

4th Generation Atheist · 02-11-2003, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Maturin
Sounds like this event was about half a step removed from snake handling.

Considering how many snakes were demonstrably in attendance, I wouldn't even put it that far.

Grumpy · 02-11-2003, 04:54 PM

I don't see anything in the Post article that indicates Bush repudiated or even commented on Glenn Plummer's remarks from the previous day, re: Islam being a pagan religion, Jesus being the only way to God, etc.

Why don't they just change the name of the group to National Christian Broadcasters, since I don't see how anyone else could have been comfortable at that convention.

Quote:

posted by Stephen Maturin
Sounds like this event was about half a step removed from snake handling.

Didn't you read the article?

Quote:

During the program, which began with a Bush speech blending into Christian hymns, Karl Rove, Bush's top political aide, worked the crowd.

See? He let Karl handle the snakes.

Toto · 02-11-2003, 06:34 PM

The people who take theology seriously have detected a change in Bush's public references to God. He has switched from a Wesleyan stance to a Calvinist one.

An Evolving Faith

Quote:

What's important is not that Bush is talking about God more, but that he's talking about him differently. We are witnessing a shift in Bush's theology--from talking mostly about a Wesleyan theology of "personal transformation" to describing a Calvinist "divine plan" laid out by a sovereign God for the country and himself. This shift has the potential to affect Bush's approach to terrorism, Iraq and his presidency. . .

Calvin, whose ideas are critical to contemporary evangelical thought, focused on the idea of a powerful God who governs "the vast machinery of the whole world." Bush has made several statements indicating he believes God is involved in world events and that he and America have a divinely guided mission:
. . .

A month after the World Trade Center attack, World Magazine, a conservative Christian publication, quoted Tim Goeglein, deputy director of White House public liaison, saying, "I think President Bush is God's man at this hour, and I say this with a great sense of humility." Time magazine reported that "Privately, Bush even talked of being chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment." The net effect is a theology that seems to imply that God is intervening in events, is on America's side, and has chosen Bush to be in the White House at this critical moment.

"All sorts of warning signals ought to go off when a sense of personal chosenness and calling gets translated into a sense of calling and mission for a nation," says Robin Lovin, a United Methodist ethicist and professor of religion and political thought at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. Lovin says what the President seems to be lacking is theological humility and an awareness of moral ambiguity.

. . .

Presidents have always used Scripture in their speeches as a source of poetry and morality, according to Michael Waldman, President Clinton's chief speechwriter, author of "POTUS Speaks" and now a visiting professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. Lincoln, he says, was the first President to use the Bible extensively in his speeches, but one of the main reasons was that his audience knew the Bible--Lincoln was using what was then common language. Theodore Roosevelt, in his 1912 speech to the Progressive Party, closed with these words: "We stand at Armageddon, and we battle for the Lord." Carter, Reagan and Clinton all used Scripture, but Waldman says their use was more as a "grace note."

Bush is different, because he uses theology as the guts of his argument. "That's very unusual in the long sweep of American history," Waldman says.

Interesting - presidents before Lincoln did not quote the Bible.

oriecat · 02-11-2003, 08:00 PM

You can read the whole text of his speech at whitehouse.gov here
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030210-1.html
if you can stand it...

"the days of discriminating against religious groups just because they're religious are coming to an end"

Jolimont · 02-11-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole
I really hate to say it, but I think we've lost the battle to keep church and state separate. And now that Bush is packing the courts with scores of right-wing judges it's only going to get worse. Get ready for creation science in the classroom, faith-based "abstinence" education, tax dollars for churches, and mandatory school prayer. It'll be just like the good ole days.

The pendulum always swings the other way my friend. Eventually, I hope anyway!

capsaicin67 · 02-11-2003, 09:36 PM

Lovin says what the President seems to be lacking is theological humility and an awareness of moral ambiguity.

Mmmmmm.....that sure sounds true. I'm one of the ones that doesn't really buy the Bush-is- plain- old- garden- variety-dumb line of thought. He's something different than that and I think this is it. And enough cause for worry by itself.

My opinion: He's mega shallow. He's never been held accountable for his actions, he believes he is aristocratically and divinely entitled and superior to most other people and he is metaphysically narrow and shallow.
He mistakes his dumb-luck charisma and financial connections for divine chosen-ness and wisdom. A huge blind spot, an area of seriously anemic insight. People like that never get it until they have to get it and may the gods help those of us that are along for the ride.

Best case scenario: his lack of insight does not get the rest of us killed, but he continues to overplay his hand politically and screws up his chance at re-election [tho a victory in Iraq will inflate his approval again ]. Tho if/when he screws up, unfortunately it isnt a very flattering reflection on the country as a whole in the intl arena, but that has a lot of of different angles it can be seen from I s'pose----and he may not screw up that big, just screw us freethinkers up.

gilly54 · 02-11-2003, 09:38 PM

I keep seeing the word "hope" a lot in our posts. Here is a big "HOPE" that the judicial branch of our government is watching all this unconstitutional incursion of religion and when the inevitable suits are filed, will slap these religious nutters, including Dubya, down.

What makes me so very angry is that our elected officials, who are supposed to uphold the Constitution, are either promoting this religious BS or staying silent on it. I've written letters to my Senators, and I urge you all to do the same. Please?

Damn, I'm beginning to sound like Galiel....

capsaicin67 · 02-11-2003, 10:36 PM

gilly54-
I agree, the watchdogs should be doing their jobs.

I actually did do the letter-writing thing and think it is generally benign at worst and good practice for me----but I was not impressed with the response I got from my reps. I think everything we all can do is important, but I would have to say, frankly, that the reps are looking at the poll numbers for their guidance. People like Evan Bayh, the Dem equivalent of GWB------born into privilege, never lived in reality, finger to the wind, other hand in your wallet.......etc.

What we probably really need to do is organize, organize, organize. Join Americans United, Campus Freethought Alliance, a Humanist Group or similar. If there's nothing in your area, and you have a smidgen of organizational/leadership skills go for it and start something. There's more stuff out there every day. We should create hubs of refuge in most areas of the country ASAP. This will offer security and visibility that should foster future growth. It will make getting our numbers up, and noticed, easier in the future.

We need numbers and dollar for political leverage AND to educate the public about what is at stake for everyone, not us alone. Most people that I know personally do NOT get exposed to that sort of information, and they do NOT get how the erosion of the wall of separation is bad for everyone, not just us heathens....... They need to hear what's in it for them, to be interested.

This seems to me like it is only going to gain momentum when we have the infrastructure as the foundation. The only thing faster and more effective would be if Britney Spears, Eminem, J-Lo, and The Osbournes do a national freethought tour.........

02-11-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Unusual Suspect
Don't forget reproductive rights. The damage the fundies have done over the last few years will be legitimated in law. Watch for Roe v. Wade to be overturned.

Absolutely! In Bush's America pregnancy is a gift from God. And even if you're a rape victim or homeless (or both), you WILL accept your gift. Period.

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02-11-2003, 01:53 PM	#21
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	Turning to matters overseas, the president said America's enemies "hate the thought [that] . . . we can worship the Almighty God the way we see fit." Mmm hmmm. We can....? I mean, we can! As long as we do worship A god. Oh....and that its the xtian one, that is! No, what (one of the things, not the only thing) they really hate is that we are predominantly of a different religion than they are-----the same thing GWB hates about them. This is the 900lb gorilla [no offense to other primates]in the room when it comes to peace and stability around the world, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular. The solution is a secular, united, state with a new script celebrating and making the new state a monument to peace and justice and the ability to have humility and resolve enormous differences in the interest of saving lives and maturing as a species, culture, individuals...... But that's the one thing that cannot ever, never, be proposed nor advocated for from a true position of global "moral" leadership. Because the politiwhackos in our country don't even get it themselves, nor want it for our own govt any longer! That screws them up around the world because they can't advocate for sanity whilst using insanity at home for their own agendas. Selfish jerks. Makes me almost hope there is a hell [presuming the god in charge of it were just].......

02-11-2003, 08:00 PM	#25
oriecat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 1,098	You can read the whole text of his speech at whitehouse.gov here http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030210-1.html if you can stand it... "the days of discriminating against religious groups just because they're religious are coming to an end"

02-11-2003, 09:36 PM	#27
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	Lovin says what the President seems to be lacking is theological humility and an awareness of moral ambiguity. Mmmmmm.....that sure sounds true. I'm one of the ones that doesn't really buy the Bush-is- plain- old- garden- variety-dumb line of thought. He's something different than that and I think this is it. And enough cause for worry by itself. My opinion: He's mega shallow. He's never been held accountable for his actions, he believes he is aristocratically and divinely entitled and superior to most other people and he is metaphysically narrow and shallow. He mistakes his dumb-luck charisma and financial connections for divine chosen-ness and wisdom. A huge blind spot, an area of seriously anemic insight. People like that never get it until they have to get it and may the gods help those of us that are along for the ride. Best case scenario: his lack of insight does not get the rest of us killed, but he continues to overplay his hand politically and screws up his chance at re-election [tho a victory in Iraq will inflate his approval again ]. Tho if/when he screws up, unfortunately it isnt a very flattering reflection on the country as a whole in the intl arena, but that has a lot of of different angles it can be seen from I s'pose----and he may not screw up that big, just screw us freethinkers up.

02-11-2003, 09:38 PM	#28
gilly54 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Almaden, California Posts: 917	I keep seeing the word "hope" a lot in our posts. Here is a big "HOPE" that the judicial branch of our government is watching all this unconstitutional incursion of religion and when the inevitable suits are filed, will slap these religious nutters, including Dubya, down. What makes me so very angry is that our elected officials, who are supposed to uphold the Constitution, are either promoting this religious BS or staying silent on it. I've written letters to my Senators, and I urge you all to do the same. Please? Damn, I'm beginning to sound like Galiel....

02-11-2003, 10:36 PM	#29
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	gilly54- I agree, the watchdogs should be doing their jobs. I actually did do the letter-writing thing and think it is generally benign at worst and good practice for me----but I was not impressed with the response I got from my reps. I think everything we all can do is important, but I would have to say, frankly, that the reps are looking at the poll numbers for their guidance. People like Evan Bayh, the Dem equivalent of GWB------born into privilege, never lived in reality, finger to the wind, other hand in your wallet.......etc. What we probably really need to do is organize, organize, organize. Join Americans United, Campus Freethought Alliance, a Humanist Group or similar. If there's nothing in your area, and you have a smidgen of organizational/leadership skills go for it and start something. There's more stuff out there every day. We should create hubs of refuge in most areas of the country ASAP. This will offer security and visibility that should foster future growth. It will make getting our numbers up, and noticed, easier in the future. We need numbers and dollar for political leverage AND to educate the public about what is at stake for everyone, not us alone. Most people that I know personally do NOT get exposed to that sort of information, and they do NOT get how the erosion of the wall of separation is bad for everyone, not just us heathens....... They need to hear what's in it for them, to be interested. This seems to me like it is only going to gain momentum when we have the infrastructure as the foundation. The only thing faster and more effective would be if Britney Spears, Eminem, J-Lo, and The Osbournes do a national freethought tour.........

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