wildernesse

I don't think that the God-designed nature that allows us the option to make bad decisions is a poor design. Why? Because I think that we need to have the ability to both make bad decisions and know the consequences of those decisions in order to fully understand why to choose the good decision.

Well, as a Christian, I think that Jesus lived a sinless life--being both fully man and God, he had the choices and the wisdom to always choose the correct decision. Other people might be able to as well, although it would be difficult.

--tibac

Philosoft

Bonsoir Amie.

<strong> That depends. If God has control over which world is instantiated and if he can instantiate a world without evil acts and still maintain free will, why wouldn't he?

<strong> Actually they are called Philosoftopia and... HEY! Those are my fantasies! Get out of my head!

<strong> Did they even know what death was? Had they seen it before?

<strong> Maybe he was a ssssssmooth talker?

*rimshot*

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

Philosoft

I'm not trying to make an argument from poor design. What I am trying to show is that A&E's choices were likely, or even inevitable, given the initial conditions mandated by God.

<strong> Heh. Touché. Can't believe I didn't see that coming.

<strong> Fair enough.

wildernesse

I agree with you, Philosoft, if A&E existed, then they were likely to make a poor decision based on the conditions. Although they didn't really know what was good/bad until they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Go figure that one out. I'm too tired right now to coherently state what I think about this--and I don't think that I have a good thought on this anyway.

--tibac

Amie

Hiya Philosoft

I just have to say I don't know...I wish I did. I wish I had a better answer for you.



I don't think they had an adequate frame of reference there. Can someone really fully comprehend a concept that they have never heard of or had no exposure to? after all wasn't their existence up until then rather blissfull...

sounds like my ex!
Thats it...this proves it, my ex was the antichrist

ManM

Jamie_L,
Forgive me if this has be answered in another thread, but what is your definition of free will?

Philosoft

Amie, Wildy,

Thank you both for the exchange. I'm not sure there's anything else for me to respond to, so barring additional queries from you, I'll digest what you have said.

Jamie_L

Well, that may be part of our problem. Me, I never think much about free will. However, I've always been fascinated with the Arguement from Evil, and free will is the standard defense. I've never bought that defense, and this thread is but one of many explorations into why I don't buy it. So, for the purposes of this thread, free will is really defined by the Christian.

My thought has always been that people do seem to be imperfect and thus if given free will, they are prone to do evil. But, God, being God and all, could have made people in such a way that they could have free will but not prone to do evil.

The usual response I've gotten to that line of reasoning is: If God made us not want to sin, we wouldn't have free will. Yet, he made us want to sin, and the same arguers find that completely compatible with free will. This seems like a double standard to me.

So, that's where this all came from.

Jamie

ManM

Jamie_L,
Have you considered that we might be in the process of reaching this goal?

Mad Kally

When I do good, I feel good
when I do bad, I feel bad
and that is my religion.

--Abe Lincoln