ten to the eleventh

This is a split from http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=97476
which was about Jesus command to "hate" your family.

In consideration of Jesus' commands and message, can a True Christian have, for instance, an IRA. Can they own a car, or house that is any more expensive than what they absolutely need (I'll grant that owning a car may be a matter of need)?

I want to keep this thread restricted to the words attributed to Jesus himself. I think if we are going to talk about what Christ wanted, we'd best just stick to what he said. With that in mind, I'll toss out a few verses indicative of what Jesus wanted his followers to do concerning worldly matters:

Mt 16:24 "Jesus told his disciples, 'If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'"

Lu 6:20 "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."

Matt 25:44 "Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matt 6:19:21. "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy ,and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal." Jesus then rounds up this teaching by saying "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

I know there are a lot more along this vein, but that should keep us going. Any Christians care to tell us how they have foregone worldly wealth, or why they don't have to? Remember, keep it to what Jesus said, and certainly don't quote Creflo Dollar.

ten to the eleventh

ten to the eleventh

As far as accumulating power and influence, we have this:

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

As far as self-defense and protection of personal property:

Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. "

Also relevant for setting the general tone:

Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?

On tax exemptions for charitable giving:

Matthew 6:1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.

On lent money:

Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

And on the IRA:

Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28"So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31"Therefore do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?' or "What shall we drink?' or "What shall we wear?' 32For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Note there, that it says that God will take care of such things as clothes and food, so what business does a Christian have with an IRA. Isn't that storing up treasures? Can a Christian do that when others are starving?

Pseudointellectual

In short, a True Christian™ should essentially be an ascetic pacifist who awaits manna from heaven as his source of sustenance. This is of course assuming that Christianity and it's founders did not have political (aside from having spiritual) agendas...

ten to the eleventh

Yeah, that's pretty much my reading of the verses. I'm hoping we get some opposing opinions, or testimony from True Christians that this is exactly how they live. Protestantism managed to tie itself into capitalism, and maintains its appeal to fat, wealthy Americans. Of course, American Christians like to move the bar for "rich" WAY up in order to feel as though they are complying with Jesus' commands, but, especially in light of all the starvation in the world, I don't see how they can justify having any more than the absolute necessities of life. Maybe they will tell us.

DeepWaters

The problem with getting 'True Christians' (TM) -- living a true ascetic lifestyle -- to answer, would be . . . would they actually even own a computer?

Maybe the Amish are 'True Christians' (TM)? Ya' think? Then again . . . I doubt they can do miracles (drink any deadly poison without it harming them, make mountains move, etc.).

ten to the eleventh

Yeah, I considered the computer bit. But maybe that can be justified. We'll see. And hey, I'm all ears!

inquisitive01

<edited>
Anyway... "hopefully" you noticed the Verse that says "But seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." See? I simply consider all the things I have now (which does not include very much compared to what a lot of others have, btw) as things "added" to my life AFTER I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior.

Btw, I don't have an IRA or a computer. I might eventually get a computer one of these days IF I feel that God has helped me to find a really good deal on one (thus, I won't be blowing money for nothing, or for any unnecessary "extras"). Also, I assure you that I don't have to "move the bar for rich" anywhere.

Oh, the administrators here with access to visitor stats (i.e., browser, state, etc. ... btw, your state says "Tejas" in your profile, ten to the eleventh) should be able to verify that I don't have a computer, but I'm not sure which administrators have access to these visitor stats. Feel free to ask them, though. :thumbs:

<edited>

Pseudointellectual

While I would also like to speculate about other posters motivations when they make threads, I usually prefer getting straight to the point. Or not.

But I believe a more charitable interpretation of Mark 6:25-34 does not proscribe against the accumulation of material wealth. What it does address however is "worrying" about material wealth ("So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field..." and ""Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?'...") or concerning onself too much with the material world instead of concerning oneself as to how to attain good graces with God.

So no matter how rich or poor you are as long as you have God in your heart (clarification of this concept forthcoming) then ye are a True Christian™. One could contend however that the presence of pleasures that can be brought to you by material wealth can distract oneself from "having God in one's heart". But surely this doesn't apply to everyone. I'm assuming those philanthropists really do feel the hardships suffered by their fellows and feel that it must be God's plan for them to help these people as long as their bank account isn't drained of cash that they need to buy that third Ferrari.

ten to the eleventh

Why did you have to put my word in bold red italics, as if I were placing stress on the word to be facetious?

"Hoping" means that I am "hoping" to get an answer to a question that I have never been able to resolve by myself, or by the enthusiastic agreement of other infidels. <edited>

I understand that you do not personally own a computer, Inquisitive01. I don't need to verify it. I also think that owning a computer may be easily justifiable for a Christian, especially if it was a primary tool of evangelizing. But, as an aside, what would you do if someone came to your door, and said, "Hey buddy, I really need a computer. Can I have yours?" Would you give it to him (if you had one)?

You sound like you don't have much money now (but, saying that you don't have much compared to those immediately around you doesn't make you poor, remember that we live in the wealthiest nation in the world). But let's say you got a job making $70k/year, and let's assume for the sake of illustration, that you have no dependents. You NEED about, what, 20k per year to live in a ratty old mobile home, drive an old Honda Civic (if not just ride a bike), and eat well enough to remain healthy. I've known people who live on a good bit less than that. Even that living standard is "wealthy" compared to most other people in the world, but let's call it a fair minimum for living in the US. Is using the other 50k for what are essentially luxuries and status symbols in a world where people are starving acceptable, according to what Christ said?

Though you could have mentioned the verse more civilly, I do think it is a good example of the type of verse I said I was looking for in the OP. Thank you for bringing it up.

My question about this verse is this: Does it mean that a Christian can be a billionaire who owns four yachts, eight mansions, and a collection of million dollar automobiles? After all, all he would have to do is "seek first the kingdom of God" by what it seems you are saying. Could you see this billionaire as a true Christian?

Consider this verse:

Matt 25:44 "Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Can't the billionaire see Jesus starving all over the world? Will he not go away into everlasting punishment?

ten to the eleventh

ten to the eleventh

"Charitable interpretation" is a clever way to put it, considering the context.
Yes, given that one verse as it stands, worrying alone is proscribed. But in the context of the others that precede it, that basically say give away freely whatever you own to anyone who needs it or just asks for it, it would seem to be sending the message that you shouldn't worry about giving everything away, leaving nothing for yourself, because God will provide for you.