Triple Six

But christianity itself is divided into a number of cults (sub-cults?) many of which are quite hostile to each other, eg catholics v methodist v SDA, etc. I don't think any particular one has more than 50% of the US population fooled (I sincerely hope not anyway ).

As for a cult becoming a religion argument through power it just doesn't make sense because where does the power cut off come. Is moronism (sic) a religion in Utah and a cult in the rest of the US? I said earlier that I called your "religions" cults because it is true and it upsets theists, perhaps I'll expand this and start calling wacko's like the Branch Davidians a religion. I'll be technically right again and you won't like it.

Finally if telling a theist that they are a cult gets even one of them to start using the logical and critical functions of their brain then I would feel much better.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Proud atheist ]</p>

The Loneliest Monk

David,

Do you believe that it is appropriate to refer to an adult cat as a kitten?

The Loneliest Monk

Proud Atheist,

I am not making any "cult becomes a religion" argument. As I have already stated, a cult is a religion with a certain type of relationship with its surrounding culture.

brighid

Lonliest Monk,

Thank you for your honest answer - however - all or most of those "cults" are recognized as religions and protected by the US Constitution. Wicca and Unitarianism in particular have quite large followings through out the US and I know of many in the UK as well. I participate in both a coven and have recently found a Unitarian Church in my area that my family and I have begun attending. Perhaps you aren't aware of their "power" because they aren't, in the eyes of a Christian, legitimate religions. Depending on the area in which one lives in the United States either "religion" has greater or lesser levels of acceptance.

"If pressured, we would estimate something on the order of 750,000 in the U.S. and perhaps 30,000 in Canada. That would make Wicca about the 7th largest organized religion in the United States, behind Christianity (159 million members), Judaism (2.8 million), Islam (1.1 million), Buddhist (1.1), Unitarian Universalist (629 thousand) and Hinduism (766 thousand). They have surpassed in numbers of American followers such established faith groups as the Baha'i Faith, Sikhism, the Society of Friends (Quaker), and Unitarian-Universalism."

2000: The Covenant of the Goddess conducted a year-long poll of Witches and Pagans, starting 1999-JUL. They estimate that the total number of Witches and Pagans in the United States are about 768,400. Most of the demographic data is as expected: There is an atypical age distribution when compared to other religions: 11% are 17 or under
25% are 18 to 25
40% are 26 to 39
23% are 40 to 59
1% are 60 or over.

86% are registered to vote. This compares with about 50% among American adults generally. This puts their effective size as a voting block at about 1.3 million, approximately half that of Jews and of Muslims in America. Politicians will have to begin to take notice.
71% are female; 29% male.
13% have military service records. 22

- from religious tolerance.org in their Wicca section - <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr.htm</a>

The army even has Chaplains and sanctions Wiccan worship!

As another posted stated - what is the power criteria that separates your cults from your religions? I think there should be a difference made to connotate those cults that are considered destructive. I posted a link previously that listed lost criteria. MANY Christian denominations fit a majority or ALL of the criteria of a destructive cult. The 700 Club is one in particular and it has quite a lot of "power" and an enormous following. Do you consider the Christian followers of the 700 Club to be members of a destructive cult? Or do you differentiate because they are Christian and therefore legitimitized in your eyes?

I realize that the world "cult" is considered to be a slanderous one. Christians in the US are predominantly responsible for demonizing this word and therefore, the negative connotation that goes along with it.

I agree with the other posters that cult and religion are one and the same. However, those minority religions that are classified as "cults" within popular culture and SEVERELY discriminated against by the mainstream "religous" populations. So much so, that even in a society that prides itself on freedom of religion they are harassed, harmed, maimed and even killed.

Now, there is a legitimate reason to classify certain groups as destructive - because they are. Christianity can not absolve itself of these sects because they happen to follow a particular for of "Christianity." Christian Cult groups tend to enjoy a greater degree of comfort than Non-Christian cult groups. This is wherein the problem lies between the definition of what is a religion and what is a cult.

To you - Wicca (and other forms of Paganism) is a cult, even though the US government recognizes it as a legitimate religion (even if the current adminstration is hostile toward it).

Brighid

PopeInTheWoods

This discussion posits a monolithic "Xianity" in the US, when in actuality American "Xians" are scattered among a large number of sects, many bearing little resemblance to others.

In the eastern suburbs of Buffalo in the late 1970's, where I was growing up within walking distance of four Catholic churches, Southern Baptists would have been considered cultists. At the same time, my family was probably considered a bunch of cultists when on vacation we were driving around southern Georgia trying to find a Catholic church on Easter Sunday.

Andy (PITW)

The Loneliest Monk

brighid,

I personally consider the 700 club and other such organizations to be fundamentally flawed institutions that make theism appear much more implausible that it in fact is. But my low opinion of them in no way affects their standing in American society as a whole. It is simply a fact that some religious groups enjoy greater acceptance in our culture than others, and this distinction cannot be ignored. The Branch Davidians simply did not have the same standing in our culture that the Methodists have. You can argue that this is wrong, but you cannot argue that it is not the case. The term "cult" simply recognizes these sorts of distinctions, and I believe that this is the only useful application of the term.

The Loneliest Monk

Pope,

There are indeed quite a number of christian groups in this country. But "sects" is the appropriate term for the majority of them. Only those that with more extreme practices would be considered cults.

Koyaanisqatsi

That has no bearing on whether or not it is a cult.

It doesn't "annoy" me; it terrifies me. I often feel like Kevin McCarthy in "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers."

This, too, has no bearing on correctly labeling christianity a cult and its members cult members.

Again, that is not my concern. Declaring the truth, however, is and the truth is that it is a cult.

Largely due, IMO, to the incorrect, misapplication of the word "cult" as a deliberate attempt to cast pious aspersions on one cult from another; aka, propaganda.

Although not directed at me, I don't argue either; I correctly apply the term do expose hypocrisy.

Your belief has been duly noted and dismissed as not applicable, but thanks.

The Loneliest Monk

Koy,

The Branch Davidians do not have the same standing as the Methodists because Methodists are not in the habit of forming compounds and taking shots at ATF agents. The Davidians simply practiced behavior that most people in this country do not consider reasonable. That is what makes them a cult. Your own particular opinion of the Methodists in no way changes their popular acceptance.

Heleilu

You two could go on forever about this.

To me two things seem quite obvious:

1. Religions and cults are fundamentally the same thing--"theistic belief systems" is long and cumbersome but something I think the two of you can agree on. Then Lonliest differentiates them by how much power they have in a certain place at a certain time, so "religion" and "cult" are two names for what is fundamentally the exact same thing but has varying amounts of power. Like David said, both kittens and cats are fundamentally the same with an age difference. Since "kittens" and "cults" are less common than "cats" and "religions", the more common term is general and the less common term comes to mean a special subset of the more common term. In other words, all kittens are cats but not all cats are kittens--kittens are a special type of cat. By that logic, cults are a subset of religions and thus not all religions can be called cults, though it's not as clear-cut as with cats and kittens.

2. On the other hand, there's no way Koy can be proven conclusively wrong in using the definition of a cult as organized worship. And, by that standard, all religions I know of consist of at least one cult. Also, religions and cults are fundamentally one (see above for my reasoning from authority). And, of course, the usage is valuable for insulting theists while still being technically correct.

In my opinion--Lonliest Monk is right, but Koy's not wrong. You can't pin a word down to one definition, even when they are mutually contradictory like these, when both definitions are quite alive.

Now, here are my 2¢--you were all clamoring for that, right?