Stormy

Ok!!! OK!!!

First retract those claws and get your teeth out of my back!

I am not God. I am just one little lady who happens to be a Christian.

I cannot answer all the why-nots and what-ifs of the Universe.

All I can tell you is... If you spend your time within your own imaginary world, then you will never begin to understand the life that we have been given.

Instead of claiming the course is too hard... Learn to master life.

If you believe that is impossible... It is because you are walking alone.

Also, please do not assume that there have been no thorns upon my path. You would be very wrong.

diana

No one seems to have their claws out or their teeth embedded anywhere on your person, Stormy. If you feel attacked, you might consider one of our fluffier forums.

So far, I see people attempting to explain, in any terms available to them using any points they find relevant, why they think your position is a bad one. I sense no acrimony here.

Interesting choice of words. "Happens to be." Hm.

If you cannot address any counter-arguments, then you should investigate your position and, if necessary, abandon it altogether.

Upon what basis do you tell us this? Whose authority do you speak from? Sounds like your own. What makes you an expert in life, more qualified than us--do you think?

Please define "my own imaginary world." I'm not certain what you mean by that, and vague terms get resoundingly trampled here. What makes you think my imaginary world is better/worse/different than yours? What makes you think my/your world is imaginary?

Another question: did you realize, when you said it, how condescending that sounds?

And yet another point: what makes you so sure we were given life? Maybe we took it. Or accidentally found it. Your choice in words suggests that there was an active giver. If you wish to posit such a thing, you must argue for it. This is, after all, the EoG forum. We do not assume the Existence of God here, except as a hypothetical premise.

Oh thank you, Master. Do you actually know any of these people here, which might qualify you to suggest to any one of them that they haven't yet "mastered life" (whatever that means)?

Technically speaking, you're exactly right, Stormy. You get credit here.

I am completely alone in this world. No matter how close I am to others, no matter what I do to feel a part of something greater, I'm still ultimately alone. I have faced that fact, embraced it, and found it gives me strength--far, far more strength and peace than I had when I thought there was a greater power with me (and everyone) always but for reasons defying comprehension, never actually protecting or helping me.

(I was going to comment that I'm walking alone because all you folks dragging those crosses can't keep up, but opted instead for an honest and hopefully, constructive answer. Don't mention it. You're welcome.)

I can't speak for all, but I don't complain about God. If I had any reason at all to believe that there was a God, I'd wear my knees raw begging him to get his followers to leave me the hell alone.

You'll note my brusque tone here. I've been reading your sweetness and light, y'all-just-don't-UNDERSTAND condescending posts and I'm tired of them. The kid gloves are off. It's time for you to stop bleating platitudes at us and defend your viewpoints. Pee or get off the potty.

d

Stormy

diana: You do not have to defend your lack of belief. How is it that I have to defend my belief?

OH... and by the way... the imaginary world that I was talking about was not a personal attack upon anyone. Why do you have such a hard time understanding me?

I have not had the cushy life that you suppose. But never once have I blamed God. I do not imagine in my mind... how I would be better at being God, and how I would have improved upon all that he has given us.

That is the imaginary world I was referring to.

I am sorry that you do not like me, but that does not seem like a good reason for me to change.

Demigawd

*does a spit-take*

You, who comes here in order to evangelize the Christian faith, are seriously asking this question?

Alot of us here, at Internet Infidels, didn't just pop out of our mothers' respective wombs as atheists (actually, there are those here who would argue we did), agnostics, pantheists, etc. We grew up in the Christian faith, going to church regularly, reading the bible, singing the hymns, etc. At some point, we realized how full of holes Christianity is, and we've moved on.

Then you, like so many other evangelicals, comes along and insults our intelligence with the same tired platitudes we've all heard over and over again. You claim the same sort of special understanding that many of us have witnessed, yet we've not been shackled permanently by that supposed wisdom.

So, yeah, you'd bloody well defend your faith, and defend it well. Otherwise, you're no more special than someone espousing that UFOs routinely give proctalogy exams to hicks, gnomes steal his underwear nightly, we were crafted by Prometheus and his brother, etc.

The fact you have a belief that gives you a warm fuzzy adds no credence to that belief. All you've shown is that an unbridle hope in a specific mythology has closed your mind to reality itself.

lpetrich

It seems to me that Heaven is a counterexample to some of the favorite "solutions" of the Problem of Evil. Everybody in it is supposed to be perfectly happy and have a perfectly healthy and pain-free existence -- there is no evil in Heaven, and no evil is necessary to make it happen.

Except, perhaps, if we are to believe the eminent theologians who have claimed that one of the greatest pleasures of Heaven is watching the torments of those sentenced to Hell.

diana

I have so many answers to this, I don't know where to begin.

Have you ever felt the need to defend your lack of belief in ogres? Were you to meet someone who honestly claims to believe in them--or worse, discusses their impact on her life as though their existence is a given--would you feel justified in inquiring why, precisely, she believes in ogres? How would you react if she responded to your questions with suggestions that your life would somehow be better if you believed in ogres, too? Would you find such presumption insulting in the least? Or would you maybe just decide she's off her nut and usher her out of your house?

Thank you for clarifying. I didn't know what you were responding to. Do you know how to use the quote function? It would help if you quote the tidbit you're responding to.

I never said I suppose any such thing, nor have I supposed it. Please be mindful of your assumptions. The only suppositions I've made thus far is that you have no idea how to support and defend your beliefs, and are even shocked that you would be called upon to do so, even in a forum entitled "Existence of God(s)" and after having been told many times pointblank to explain why, exactly, you hold the beliefs you do. (Although, that isn't really a supposition; you've said and/or demonstrated as much thus far.)

So...has anyone suggested that you've "blamed God" for not having a cushy life? Why the defensiveness? Or are you suggesting that perhaps those who have bad lives and claim to not believe in a god have "blamed God" for their lack of ease? Because that's precisely what it sounds like you're implying.

If this is the case, once again you have presumed something about many people you know nothing of.

Ah. Again, thank you for the clarification.

I don't know you to like you or not, Stormy. What I take offense at is your coming here and making claims we've all heard before and not backing them up when asked. You've been asked many pointed questions about why you believe as you do. That's what we're about, you see. We strip away all the Appeals to Emotion (and religion runs high on them), all the irrelevant premises, and determine whether the argument that's left adequately supports its conclusion.

If you think I'm being rough, you just keep making unsupported assertions and ignoring questions like you have so far. When the regular denizens of this forum are through with you, you'll be roadkill.

Or, you can respect what we're about, stop taking it personally, brush up on how to think rationally by following the link (for starters) I gave you earlier, and come back with sufficient knowledge and armor to support and defend your beliefs. There really aren't any other choices.

d

Asha'man

Actually, we aren't offended as much by your belief, but by sloppy thinking in general. I am on a personal crusade to wipe out ignorance, superstition, and willful stupidity in the human race. Want to join in?

Think of this website as a boot camp for the brain, with specific emphasis on clear, rational thinking. Learn how to debate, argue, reason, and explain. Our primary exercise will be working on the most common source of irrational thinking found in society today: religious brainwashing.

If, at graduation, you are still a theist, but can defend your belief with clear strong arguments, you will be able to say you graduated with honors.


By the way, diana has actually defended her lack of belief before, many times. She has taught many of us how to do so, and done so well. Even as a theist, you could learn a great deal from her.

SRB

Two quick points:

#1 Much suffering is caused by natural disasters and is not like the suffering you describe. Why doesn't God prevent it?

#2 Freedom is generally a good thing, but when your freedom leads to enormous harm to others, it needs to be restricted. It is clearly not morally acceptable to let people torture and murder innocent humans when you can easily prevent that! To stand idly by would obviously be morally unacceptable.

SRB

ReasonableDoubt

I am trying to think outside the box here - and am still wondering if we are making a value judgment among competing values and have we established why that judgment is correct. That being - the state of "non-evil" being more valuable than autonomy.

How have we arrived at the conclusion that non-evil, or perfection, for lack of a better word, is more important objectively than autonomy?

Now, I've seen the arguments here that we could still have autonomy and yet the amount of evil could be less. I see that point, but I also see that if every person has complete autonomy as far as their thoughts and actions, some people will opt to act to the detriment of others. And to stop them from doing so is interfering with their choice of how they wish to pursue their own happiness. As a result of that people are going to get hurt, and yes that is wrong and undesirable.

But is it possible that, to God, the highest "good" is allowing each person to pursue their own agenda - and that that "good" outweighs the value of perfection?

As far as "natural" evil - no doubt suffering ensues as a result of tornadoes, volcanoes, hurricanes, etc. But those things in and of themselves are amoral. So are viruses, bacteria, etc. The suffering occurs when animals are there, in the way, so to speak, of nature. Sure, God could step in and move the path of the tornado or the lava, but not if He has decided that the world is to operate completely autonomously according to the laws of physics, b/c that is the highest value.

Maybe we can't understand how that could be, but just b/c we can't understand it doesn't mean it can't be.

And I'm not arguing about the existence of an afterlife- so I don't know if there's autonomy in heaven or not. I'm talking about the physical world - talking about a being "God"- not the God of the Bible or any organized religion, but an ontological being.

Leaving aside the notion of a utopia like the Garden of eden, or Heaven - why is it that we have decided that perfection is the ultimate value?

Free Thinkr

Well, if one person exercises his autonomy by enslaving another, is the second person's autonomy not hindered? In that particular scenario, the second person both suffers and loses his autonomy.

Sure its possible. What we are trying to determine here is whether or not it is likely. What would we think of a parent who held the values of the god you described above?

Why physical deformities? Why must babies be born with defects that will kill them shortly after birth? Sure, you can say that god values autonomy of both humans and natural events above all else, but then you are forced to admit that your god is not much of a philathropist.

Ok.. so what are your main reasons for believing in the god you describe?


That's just what humans seem to value most. No one wants to suffer, and most of us are empathetic enough to try to prevent suffering of others. Almost everything we do, we do in an effort to prevent human suffering. We make technological advances in order to make our lives easier, we have laws to prevent crimanals from hurting us. Humans definitely prefer the prevention of suffering to unadulterated autonomy.