Toto

I think it's a lot less sophisticated than that. Atheist is just a general synonym for "bad" in their vocabulary. If it's bad, it can't be (true) Christian, so anything or anyone bad can be labeled an atheist.

Vorkosigan

I don't know much about mao. He was also an atheist though from what I've heard.
Hitler, I do beleive is Lutheran(state church of Germany), he was just cossy with the catholic church since they shared his fassist values.
---onto possible argument---

No, Hitler was a Catholic and attended Church until sometime after WWI, when he dropped away.

Alonzo Fyfe

The original letter constructs a straw man. It gives an absurd interpretation to the original argument, and then attacks this absurdity. But it ignores the real argument.

The absurd argument being substituted for the point actually being made is this:

(1) Some Christians have done evil.
(2) Therefore, nobody should be Christian.

The author of the letter then goes on to argue that since atheists do more evil, there is an even stronger reason to hold that nobody should be an atheist.

But this is like saying, "Since scientists who believe that dinosaurs were warm-blooded do more evil than scientists who believe that dinosaurs were cold-blooded, therefore dinosaurs were cold-blooded."

The real point being made is not that religious people do evil, but that they do evil IN THE NAME OF GOD.

I do not count the example of a prist molesting a child as an example of the point being made. Even though this is an evil done by somebody who is religious, it is not done IN THE NAME OF GOD.

But Crusades, Inqusitions, Jihads, the 30-years war, the Conquistadors, burning of witches and infidels are all examples, not only of evil done by religious people, but evil done by religious people IN THE NAME OF GOD.

Similarly, any evil done by an atheist would not serve as a counter-example -- only evils that are done by atheists IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM.

Hitler acquired his anti-Jewish stentiments as Catholic and he learned to hate Jews as a child IN THE NAME OF GOD.

Hitler's NAZI Germany was not a war to promote atheism. The people who voted for Hitler, the people who helped enact his policies, the people who destroyed the shops of Jews and abused those that Hitler forced to wear the Star of David were not atheists. They were Christians, and their hatred of Jews was a religious hatred. They executed Hitler's plans to exterminate the Jews IN THE NAME OF GOD.

Ron Garrett

Every theist wants to blame the evils of the world on "those people." Even if you point out to a Catholic that Hitler was a Catholic, they will only say "he wasn't a real Catholic."

God-believers all are certain that theism is enobling, and when you demonstrate through example that theism simply accentuates the persons traits, ie. an asshole that thinks some god is on his side simply gains confidence to become a gaping, flaming asshole, they simply run away from the evidence, reassuring themselves there really is a god and believing in the god really does enoble if you just do it right. It's childish and naieve, traits heartily encouraged in every faith, right down to the holy men calling the faithful "little children." Only a handful seem to ever make it to intellectual awareness.

GaryP

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00006125" target="_blank">infidels.org</a>

In his day, hatred of Jews was the norm. In great measure it was sponsored by the two major religions of Germany, Catholicism and Lutheranism. He greatly admired Martin Luther, who openly hated the Jews. Luther condemned the Catholic Church for its pretensions and corruption, but he supported the centuries of papal pogroms against the Jews. Luther said, "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them." "Ungodly wretches" he calls the Jews in his widely read Table Talk.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: GaryP ]</p>

DougI

The Christians are missing the point. No true Nazi would participate in the killing of six million Jews. True Nazis love wearing uniforms, marching and picking flowers for girlfriends, they don't like killing. We certainly can't let a few bad apples speak for the rest of them.

Autonemesis

It's really not complicated. Stalin and Mao were not motivated by atheism. They did not act in the name of Darwin, or for the glory of the Big Bang. The Crusades, the Inquisition, witch burning, and the rest were all motivated by a desire to "do God's will." That is a crucial difference that cannot be ignored.

Berenger Sauniere

Onward Christian Soldier comes to mind, probably one of Hitler's favorite hymns.

DarkBronzePlant

On Hitler, it is also worth noting the deal made between Hitler and Pope Pious XII gave Vatican City its autonomy, and gave Hitler the Catholic Church's blessing.

On Mao, I may be extremely ignorant here, but can anyone explain to me why he is commonly referred to in the same light as Hitler? In the brief time I spent in China, I didn't get any negative impressions of Mao, at least from the Chinese themselves.

Toto

Could it be that he is part of the Yellow Peril? (or were they Japanese?)

Mao was not motivated by religious or racial-based hatred in the way that Hitler was. But some of his economic policies led to mass starvation, and his human rights record was not the best (but probably not the worst in the World). And, if you are on the side of the Tibetan nationalists, he invaded Tibet and oppressed the Tibetans by restricting their native culture and religion. But he is not in the same class as Hitler or Stalin.