Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Killjoy · 10-28-2002, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Besides, if God made Himself obviously and clearly known, and the fact that He was God (omnipotent, omniscient, perfect in love and justice), to the point of absolute knowledge (so that none could be deceived), then there could be no real "testing" of people's hearts.

What exactly is God testing us for? To determine how little evidence He can get away with presenting before some people start to believe? Is heaven to be reserved for only the most credulous in the community?

SecularFuture · 10-28-2002, 02:15 PM

Douglas J. Bender,

Quote:

� You must be very lonely.�

Do you have a bad habit for assuming things without evidence? Is this why you believe in God? I am not lonely at all.

Quote:

� God didn't create any "evil"�

Well � where did it come from? Nothing? We created it? I thought God was the creator of all things.

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� According to the Bible, God has perfectly "equipped" Christians in the fight against evil.�

The bible? And you believe the bible was inspired by God? Could you please explain your reasons for believing this?

Quote:

�God deals with each person on a personal level�

How do you know that you�re not just talking to yourself? How do you know if you�re really talking to God?

Jobar

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� SF, I'm not sure if you are aware, but pug846 is an atheist. His disagreements concerning the nature of evidence are purely on semantic grounds, I think.

Wow � I would�ve never guessed. Thank you.

Quote:

� Also, I want to warn you that debating with Douglas Bender has so far proven to be one long X to every other unbeliever on this board. He is not a rational or honest person, IMO.

Oh � debating irrational and dishonest people is my specialty.

SecularFuture · 10-28-2002, 02:17 PM

BigZiprHead, Galiel, Killer,
Thank you very much for the support.
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Keith Russell · 10-29-2002, 01:21 PM

Pug846L:

Testimony is not evidence.

A testimony is a claim, and claims (to be believed by rational persons) must be supported by evidence.

Claims supported only by other claims, should not be believed by people who wish to call themselves 'rational'.

Keith.

Skepticos · 10-29-2002, 01:40 PM

Douglas Bender writes:

"God didn't create any 'evil' - free will created beings themselves 'created', by their free will choices, evil.

If I understand the above sentence correctly, you are saying that God did not create evil. Yet this is an unbiblical claim, at least according to the prophet Isaiah. Please read Isaiah 45:7 in the original Hebrew. I will paraphrase:

"I bring peace (Heb. 'shalom') and create evil (Heb. 'ra'); I, the Lord, do all these things.

- Skepticos

Primal · 10-29-2002, 03:46 PM

Testimony only counts as evidence if it fits in with background knowledge and if nothing negates it, otherwise it is worthless.

SecularFuture · 10-29-2002, 06:42 PM

Keith Russell,

Quote:

� A testimony is a claim, and claims (to be believed by rational persons) must be supported by evidence.�

But where is this testimony coming from? A book that you *THINK* was inspired by God. The bible carries no credibility.

pug846 · 10-29-2002, 07:04 PM

Keith said:

Quote:

Testimony is not evidence.

A testimony is a claim, and claims (to be believed by rational persons) must be supported by evidence.

Claims supported only by other claims, should not be believed by people who wish to call themselves 'rational'.

Good Lord.

Let�s go to the dictionary:

Quote:

ev�i�dence
n.
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

By each of these definitions, testimony is evidence. Christ, go into a court of law and explain to everyone that testimony can�t count as evidence. Let�s see what happens to the criminal justice system. (Testimony is actually used as one of the examples in Black�s Law Dictionary as evidence. Your honor, I�m sorry, the fact that we have had 250 witnesses testify today that they saw my client murder the victim doesn�t count for squat. You see�those are just claims and not evidence.)

If I see Mary kiss Jack, I might testify to you that Mary kissed jack. This is evidence. It might not be SUFFICENT to warrant belief, but that doesn�t mean it isn�t evidence. It is evidence, by definition.

At this point, I don�t know how to make my point any clearer. If anyone claims that there is no evidence that God exists, they are being sloppy with their language. The evidence might not be sufficient, the evidence might not be very convincing, it might support multiple conclusions, but it is there.

Saying there is no reason to believe in God is so ridiculous as to not warrant further discussion.

Douglas J. Bender · 10-29-2002, 10:58 PM

Skepticos,

Regarding Isaiah 45:7 and the problem of the word "evil" in that passage (in the King James Version): Here's part of a post I made just a few minutes ago in another thread in this very forum [Existence of God(s)] that very specifically dealt with that problem (with names deleted to protect the person with the name deleted):

Quote:

Context. And "English translation". The passage in Isaiah you are referring to is Isaiah 45:7, where the Lord says,

"'I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'"

The above quote is from the New King James Version, but the same passage in the King James Version has "evil" instead of "calamity", hence [the] assertion that the Lord creates "evil".
The actual Hebrew word translated in this passage as "calamity" in the NKJV has several different, but similar, meanings, according to Strong's Concordance. It can mean any of the following: "adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, distress, evil, grief, harm, hurt, misery, noisome, sad, sore, trouble, vex, wicked, worse, wretchedness, wrong". Quite a possible selection for one word. Anyway, to us, using modern English, "calamity" is not strictly the same as "evil". When God says that He creates "calamities", He's just asserting that He has the power to punish, especially temporally/physically. The Flood was a "calamity", but not an "evil". For comparison, here are the Merriam-Webster definitions for "calamity":

"1 : a state of deep distress or misery caused by major misfortune or loss
2 : an extraordinarily grave event marked by great loss and lasting distress and affliction".

Even God's judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrha was a "calamity", but it was not a moral "evil", since it was the result of God's righteous (at least, according to the Bible, of course) judgment upon Sodom and Gomorrha's sins . God does not cause or "create" moral evil, and the verse in Isaiah 45:7 in no way suggests that He does.

In Christ,

Douglas

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Douglas J. Bender ]</p>

Douglas J. Bender · 10-29-2002, 11:06 PM

SecularFuture,

I had said to you:

Quote:

”You must be very lonely.”

You responded:

Quote:

Do you have a bad habit for assuming things without evidence? Is this why you believe in God? I am not lonely at all.

You know what? I don't actually recall why I said that, but I do know that it was not in mockery. I think it had to do with a feeling I got that you once felt you had a relationship with God but then you felt you lost it (losing faith that He exists). I guess it struck me that that would create, even unconsiously, a rather lonely feeling. I'm pretty sure I wasn't making just some psychological assessment, but I had some specific purpose in saying that I thought you must be very lonely - after a bunch of other posts and a few other threads, and some "run-arounds" in real-life, I'm afraid I've forgotten what my purpose was. Sorry. In any case, please trust me when I say I wasn't saying that to score a point or put you down or anything like that.

In Christ,

Douglas

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Douglas J. Bender ]</p>

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10-28-2002, 02:17 PM	#33
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	BigZiprHead, Galiel, Killer, Thank you very much for the support. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

10-29-2002, 01:21 PM	#34
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Pug846L: Testimony is not evidence. A testimony is a claim, and claims (to be believed by rational persons) must be supported by evidence. Claims supported only by other claims, should not be believed by people who wish to call themselves 'rational'. Keith.

10-29-2002, 01:40 PM	#35
Skepticos Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Richardson, Texas Posts: 77	Douglas Bender writes: "God didn't create any 'evil' - free will created beings themselves 'created', by their free will choices, evil. If I understand the above sentence correctly, you are saying that God did not create evil. Yet this is an unbiblical claim, at least according to the prophet Isaiah. Please read Isaiah 45:7 in the original Hebrew. I will paraphrase: "I bring peace (Heb. 'shalom') and create evil (Heb. 'ra'); I, the Lord, do all these things. - Skepticos

10-29-2002, 03:46 PM	#36
Primal Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Marcos Posts: 551	Testimony only counts as evidence if it fits in with background knowledge and if nothing negates it, otherwise it is worthless.

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