Freethought & Rationalism Archive

seesaw · 01-17-2003, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Atheism does not require faith.

Agreed. I can't see how having no faith ends up meaning you have faith. That would mean that your not an atheist but agnostic.

Novowels · 01-17-2003, 04:05 AM

If I were to say, for instance, that "2 plus 2 will never equal 5" is that "just faith" or is it a logical consequence of 2 and 2 adding together to equal 4 every time?

[ edit: reworded slightly ]

thebeave · 01-17-2003, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Proud atheist
Seeing that I haven't personally derived all the current scientific theories from first principals, nor conducted experiments to prove them, nor performed my own archealogical searches, etc you could say I was taking an awful lot on faith only. After all we could all be vicitims of some massive conspiracy

We are talking a matter of degree here, just about anything is possible including invisible sky gods pulling our strings but the probabilities are so small as to be negligible. To compare the "faith" in an atheist who has rejected a deity by calling an extreme improbability an impossibility with that of a theist who has no problem ignoring massive inconsistencies and illogicallities is not valid.

Exactly. There is a vanishingly small, finite possibility that Elvis is still alive, and that his death was an elaborate conspiracy and hoax. However, the overwhelming evidence is that he's dead. If someone asks you if you think Elvis is alive, do you say, "Hmmm... I would have to reply that it hasn't been proven to a degree of 100.00...% certainty, only 99.9999...%. So, on that basis, I would have to say, "I don't know if Elvis is dead or alive"". If this is the approach you take to everything in life, how can you be sure of anything? Where do you draw the line?

tommyc · 01-17-2003, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
Once again, we see the strong/weak atheism thing rear its head.

Weak atheism: No faith.
Strong atheism: Some faith.

This should be the END of the debate. As strong atheism requires a small amount of faith (e.g. "firm belief in something for which there is no proof "), as there can be no PROOF for something's non-existence, so does the assertion that anything doesn't exist. i.e. lepricorns, pink unicorns, magic slipper huyegens etc.

Paul2 · 01-17-2003, 05:10 AM

I don't speak for everyone, but how i view my atheism is not having faith in any gods. That's not to be confused as having faith in no gods. there is a difference.

seesaw · 01-17-2003, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Novowels
If I were to say, for instance, that "2 plus 2 will never equal 5" is that "just faith" or is it a logical consequence of 2 and 2 adding together to equal 4 every time?

[ edit: reworded slightly ]

I don't see how that would be faith sense it's a fact that 2+2=4 and never would equal 5.

Selsaral · 01-17-2003, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tommyc
This should be the END of the debate. As strong atheism requires a small amount of faith (e.g. "firm belief in something for which there is no proof "), as there can be no PROOF for something's non-existence, so does the assertion that anything doesn't exist. i.e. lepricorns, pink unicorns, magic slipper huyegens etc.

Exactly. I am not 100% positive I even exist. I guess I have to have 'faith' to assume I exist? If that's the case, then yes, it takes faith to assert there aren't 79 purple elephants living in my nose. However this kind of 'faith' is entirely different (by many orders of magnitude) from the faith it takes to believe in crop circles, psychics, gods, fairies etc.

Selsaral · 01-17-2003, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave
Exactly. There is a vanishingly small, finite possibility that Elvis is still alive, and that his death was an elaborate conspiracy and hoax. However, the overwhelming evidence is that he's dead. If someone asks you if you think Elvis is alive, do you say, "Hmmm... I would have to reply that it hasn't been proven to a degree of 100.00...% certainty, only 99.9999...%. So, on that basis, I would have to say, "I don't know if Elvis is dead or alive"". If this is the approach you take to everything in life, how can you be sure of anything? Where do you draw the line?

I should have just quoted you instead of posting, you state it better than me. So many agnostics claim since you can't be 100% sure that a god doesn't exist, it's foolish to claim a god doesn't exist. In that line of thought, it's foolish to claim we even exist.

Psycho Economist · 01-17-2003, 07:31 AM

I've been chewing my cud on this one since I last posted, and I think I have another idea.

A person's beliefs go beyond saying "I do not suppose that deities exist, because I have seen no evidence for their existance." They say, "I do not believe there are super-natural causes to natural events, because there is no incontravertably affirmative evidence to support such a belief."

The existance of any and all deities (i.e. a supernatural patron capable of beneficient or retalliatory intercession in the natural world) can be positively denied because deities are subset of supernatural causes. By being an disbeliever, even agnostically, in all things supernatural one can be a strong atheist and not have it be a matter of faith.

[Thanks for the thumbs-up

, even if it made me notice my badly of grammar.]

Philosoft · 01-17-2003, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psycho Economist

A person's beliefs go beyond saying "I do not suppose that deities exist, because I have seen no evidence for their existance." They say, "I do not believe there are super-natural causes to natural events, because there is no incontravertably evidence to affirm such a belief."

The existance of any and all deities (i.e. a supernatural patron capable of beneficient or retalliatory intercession in the natural world) can be positively denied because deities are subset of supernatural causes. By being an disbeliever, even agnostically, in all things supernatural one can be a strong atheist and not have it be a matter of faith.

Yahtzee. I mean, Bingo.

01-17-2003, 04:05 AM	#52
Novowels Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,658	Curious: If I were to say, for instance, that "2 plus 2 will never equal 5" is that "just faith" or is it a logical consequence of 2 and 2 adding together to equal 4 every time? [ edit: reworded slightly ]

01-17-2003, 07:31 AM	#59
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	Try this on for size... I've been chewing my cud on this one since I last posted, and I think I have another idea. A person's beliefs go beyond saying "I do not suppose that deities exist, because I have seen no evidence for their existance." They say, "I do not believe there are super-natural causes to natural events, because there is no incontravertably affirmative evidence to support such a belief." The existance of any and all deities (i.e. a supernatural patron capable of beneficient or retalliatory intercession in the natural world) can be positively denied because deities are subset of supernatural causes. By being an disbeliever, even agnostically, in all things supernatural one can be a strong atheist and not have it be a matter of faith. [Thanks for the thumbs-up , even if it made me notice my badly of grammar.]

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01-17-2003, 05:10 AM	#55
Paul2 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,088	I don't speak for everyone, but how i view my atheism is not having faith in any gods. That's not to be confused as having faith in no gods. there is a difference.

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