Seraphim

O.k, sorry for misunderstanding. But, why the cringe against atheists attempting Buddhism? From my interpretation of your views, atheism is a "belief" which lacked discipline compared to "teachings" like Buddhism, correct?

My reply : Why cringe against Atheists attempting Buddhism? Because :

1. They do not take Buddhism as a path for self-discovery, they take it as an excuse to justify themselves, in this case, using Buddhism to attack other theists.

2. Atheist seems to treat Buddhism as religion and I have shown why it (Buddhism) is not supposed to be considered as religion but as teaching. And I have shown the different between both as well.

3. Yes, Atheist seems to be lack of basic needs for following path of Buddhism - which is open-mind (ability to accept other people's beliefs as others' choice of belief and to know that they don't know everything), the intention to discovery oneself (in term that knowing that they are suffering and they need to find answers for themselves) and self-discipline and self sacrifice (in term of knowing that you are in quest to find answers and willing to sacrifice anything to follow ones' chosen path).

My main concern is that people who have lack of understanding of anything will upset other theists with their interpretation of Buddhism. If you wondering where I got this idea, it is from my experience here for the past few months plus the fact that many of you (Atheists and others alike) unable to answer or even attempt to answer questions which I posted. If you don't even bother with question from another fellow human being, would you bother about your own consciousness and other people's feelings?

Being born and raised in the East, I have brought up with the understanding that each person should follow his own path and how others follow their path IS their business.

Finally, One last question. I kept hearing that Atheists are following Buddha's path in quest to find answers. My question is, Gautama had sacrificed so much for his quest, WHAT did you (Atheists) sacrificed to follow his path?

Herbert Von Karajan

1. They do not take Buddhism as a path for self-discovery, they take it as an excuse to justify themselves, in this case, using Buddhism to attack other theists.

I think you generalize ALL atheists as anti-religious militants. There are also humanistic atheists who respect other people's belief, in God or "teaching" (philosophy)

2. Atheist seems to treat Buddhism as religion and I have shown why it (Buddhism) is not supposed to be considered as religion but as teaching. And I have shown the different between both as well.

Maybe. But militant atheists you described in (1) rejects religion as a form of living (or way of life), so how could they take Buddhism as a "religion"? There are atheist Buddhists who have fulfilled your requirement of being Buddhist, that is to take it as a discipline (teaching), not religion.

3. Yes, Atheist seems to be lack of basic needs for following path of Buddhism - which is open-mind (ability to accept other people's beliefs as others' choice of belief and to know that they don't know everything), the intention to discovery oneself (in term that knowing that they are suffering and they need to find answers for themselves) and self-discipline and self sacrifice (in term of knowing that you are in quest to find answers and willing to sacrifice anything to follow ones' chosen path).

Forgive me, but I need to point out your inconsistency in your stance. You stereotype ALL atheist as being indisciplined and lack of purpose in life. In short, they need Buddhism to justify themselves. This isn't true.

My main concern is that people who have lack of understanding of anything will upset other theists with their interpretation of Buddhism. If you wondering where I got this idea, it is from my experience here for the past few months plus the fact that many of you (Atheists and others alike) unable to answer or even attempt to answer questions which I posted. If you don't even bother with question from another fellow human being, would you bother about your own consciousness and other people's feelings?

Me? I don't think I recalled posting comments which irked or offended you. Blatant generalization is a form of obvious hypocrisy, please understand. And I'm a pantheist. And thank you for your concern of Buddhism in Western worldview, but there are atheists here who needs to defend their views as well. Respect and listen to them.

Being born and raised in the East, I have brought up with the understanding that each person should follow his own path and how others follow their path IS their business.

(I'll try to keep this from ad homs...). i think my points above repeats my answer here. I don't see humility and wisdom of the East present in your posts here. Sorry.

Finally, One last question. I kept hearing that Atheists are following Buddha's path in quest to find answers. My question is, Gautama had sacrificed so much for his quest, WHAT did you (Atheists) sacrificed to follow his path?

I am not, and not qualified to answer, forgive me.

Seraphim

I think you generalize ALL atheists as anti-religious militants. There are also humanistic atheists who respect other people's belief, in God or "teaching" (philosophy)

My reply : I haven't met anyone as such described here in this forum.

Maybe. But militant atheists you described in (1) rejects religion as a form of living (or way of life), so how could they take Buddhism as a "religion"? There are atheist Buddhists who have fulfilled your requirement of being Buddhist, that is to take it as a discipline (teaching), not religion.

My reply : Militant atheists? Such group exists? Frankly speaking, I don't see why anyone should bother whether they exists or how they take religion or teachings, AS LONG AS they do not do things to upset others who do belief in such beliefs.

As for atheists Buddhist, I have yet to meet anyone here who fits such description as well. Most I seen here are ones who did some meditation or attended some seminar, preaching or met and talked with people who into Buddhism. This people have a VERY long way to go and they shouldn't be so happy so early in stage of self-discovery.

Forgive me, but I need to point out your inconsistency in your stance. You stereotype ALL atheist as being indisciplined and lack of purpose in life. In short, they need Buddhism to justify themselves. This isn't true.

My reply : This I will let you answer yourselves. Ask yourselves if you have sat down and thought things through of WHY you are doing things as you are doing now.

If you think Buddhism will give you any meaning in life or things like that which you lack from other religions etc, then I suggest you stop wasting your time. Buddhism is not about giving others meaning of life, it is about you finding yourself and your own defination of "Who am I?". If you never bother asking yourself that question and find the answer from each and every thoughts and actions you do (your actions shows your inner self), then you will never find anything but more questions to burden yourselves.

Me? I don't think I recalled posting comments which irked or offended you. Blatant generalization is a form of obvious hypocrisy, please understand. And I'm a pantheist. And thank you for your concern of Buddhism in Western worldview, but there are atheists here who needs to defend their views as well. Respect and listen to them.

My reply : Defend your views, BUT don't mix it up with someone's else Way of life. Buddhism is not here for you to make as excuse, it is here to guide you toward path of self-discovery.

(I'll try to keep this from ad homs...). i think my points above repeats my answer here. I don't see humility and wisdom of the East present in your posts here. Sorry.

My reply : Ever heard of the Essence of Warrior? A warrior will fight with his might, NOT with humility and wisdom. My nature is that of a warrior, IF you consider me to be humble and peaceful all the time, I afraid I will dissappoint you.

I am not, and not qualified to answer, forgive me.

My reply : I wasn't expecting an answer from you. Let this question echo in the minds of each of you who consider taking Buddhism as your path.

What will you sacrifice to find yourself?
Are you willing to force yourself to walk this path OR will you turn and run because you unable to take the challenge?

And WHY are you asking for forgiveness every five seconds? You are required to be truthful to yourself, not for the sake of others. If you speak from your heart what is true, then there is nothing to forgive since it is true from your point of view.

AdamWho

Seraphim

I completely agree, Buddhism (in its simplest form) is not a religion but rather a teaching.

Here is an example of a misunderstanding. Atheism is not a path, teaching, or religion, period. It is a lack of belief in god.

That is a valid concern, but I didn't realize that Buddhism needed defended or was recruiting. There are a couple of reasons atheists act so strongly.

1. They feel free to discuss their frustrations about living in a very religious country (usa) and how this effects their freedoms. It is a very positive experience to have a group of people you can talk to.

2. Many atheists are strong activists for separation of church and state, and often carry their zeal too far. I don't know if you have religious people taking too much power and forcing their beliefs on people in your country.

Many people on this board when they turned away from religion, lost family, jobs, their whole lives. Just because they didn't think that they were on the right path and turned away. It takes a lot of self-discipline; determination and Inner strength to turn away from something you have known your whole life. Sounds to me like Buddha’s experience turning away from his riches, family and Hinduism. Many atheist then turn to experimenting with all sorts of spiritual practices and other non-theistic religions, new atheists usually to do a lot of research and studying trying to find answers. Doesn't this sound like the Buddha, when he experimented with many types of practices?

Herbert Von Karajan

My reply : I haven't met anyone as such described here in this forum.

Then I have no further comments.

My reply : Militant atheists? Such group exists? Frankly speaking, I don't see why anyone should bother whether they exists or how they take religion or teachings, AS LONG AS they do not do things to upset others who do belief in such beliefs.

But from what I read, you perceive that atheists are a bunch of insecure individuals who diss religious people. These are militant atheists.

As for atheists Buddhist, I have yet to meet anyone here who fits such description as well. Most I seen here are ones who did some meditation or attended some seminar, preaching or met and talked with people who into Buddhism. This people have a VERY long way to go and they shouldn't be so happy so early in stage of self-discovery.

So? You speak as if you're one path closer to eternal enlightenment. I don't think being obnoxious is one of core points in Buddhism.

My reply : This I will let you answer yourselves. Ask yourselves if you have sat down and thought things through of WHY you are doing things as you are doing now.

If you think Buddhism will give you any meaning in life or things like that which you lack from other religions etc, then I suggest you stop wasting your time. Buddhism is not about giving others meaning of life, it is about you finding yourself and your own defination of "Who am I?". If you never bother asking yourself that question and find the answer from each and every thoughts and actions you do (your actions shows your inner self), then you will never find anything but more questions to burden yourselves.

Me? Likewise, I take whatever wisdom from philosophy or religions and use them as my way of life. I think each person should consider their definition of the meaning of life because that is the only way you don't misuse your life or let it go to waste. If your definition of Buddhism is true, I oppose it. Teaching or religion, it must be for the sake of happiness of All. Not just Humans, and fragile creations of universe.

Hitler did asked himself "Who am I?" Later he went on to became a dictator and slaughtered millions of Jews. For me, I ask "What can I do to benefit whole Mankind and Nature?". I do not think Buddhism is nihilistic as you described.

My reply : Defend your views, BUT don't mix it up with someone's else Way of life. Buddhism is not here for you to make as excuse, it is here to guide you toward path of self-discovery.

What do you mean by "...don't mix it up with someone's else Way of life?

My reply : Ever heard of the Essence of Warrior? A warrior will fight with his might, NOT with humility and wisdom. My nature is that of a warrior, IF you consider me to be humble and peaceful all the time, I afraid I will dissappoint you.

I think Hitler, the jihad suicide bombers and KKK are also qualified to be part of "Essence of warrior", if your definition are right. They fought for what they think is best.

My reply : I wasn't expecting an answer from you. Let this question echo in the minds of each of you who consider taking Buddhism as your path.

What will you sacrifice to find yourself?
Are you willing to force yourself to walk this path OR will you turn and run because you unable to take the challenge?

Of course I take the challenge, depends on how the outcome it will be and it's purpose. If it's purpose is for destruction, it is ok to be coward. Better to be a coward than sacrificing what is noble and good just for that purpose. It is worst than cowardly if you choose to run away from your responsibilities as well.

I will ask you again in turn; Do you serve yourself or for whomever created you or preserved you? Do you strive for happiness of whole, and not for your own?

And WHY are you asking for forgiveness every five seconds? You are required to be truthful to yourself, not for the sake of others. If you speak from your heart what is true, then there is nothing to forgive since it is true from your point of view.

It is my way not be arrogant or boastful. I am here to dialogue, not to win admiration or to boast my ideology and win it based on sheer ego. I know also what I speak is from myself, not by dictation of others.

Seraphim

Here is an example of a misunderstanding. Atheism is not a path, teaching, or religion, period. It is a lack of belief in god.

My reply : Then Atheism has NOTHING to do with Buddhism (a Teaching), do you agree?

That is a valid concern, but I didn't realize that Buddhism needed defended or was recruiting. There are a couple of reasons atheists act so strongly.

My reply : If I don't go to hell for sake of others, Who will?
There are others in the East who rely on Buddhism to live a proper life and they have no Internet (even TV in some region) to voice their opinions.

1. They feel free to discuss their frustrations about living in a very religious country (usa) and how this effects their freedoms. It is a very positive experience to have a group of people you can talk to.

My reply : They feel frustated because they have too much desires and needs. Their desires to be recognized and accepted is what makes them suffer, not the country or its "religions" or your lack of freedom. Mahatma Gandhi taught everyone (especially those in the East) that NO ONE could take away your freedom IF you don't allow them to.

If you think USA is very religious, then you should try living in the East where customs and religious belief (and some beliefs which has nothing to do with religion) attend to get mixed with your daily lives.

2. Many atheists are strong activists for separation of church and state, and often carry their zeal too far. I don't know if you have religious people taking too much power and forcing their beliefs on people in your country.

My reply : Have you ever try living in a Muslim country? Here's a bunch who seeks you (non Muslims) as future fuel source to hell and treats you such.

Many people on this board when they turned away from religion, lost family, jobs, their whole lives. Just because they didn't think that they were on the right path and turned away. It takes a lot of self-discipline; determination and Inner strength to turn away from something you have known your whole life.

My reply : Wrong, it doesn't take a lot of things to turn you into a coward and run.
They should have explained to their family and friends that they don't couldn't find answers to their questions in life and wish to find it on their own. IF his/her family and friends love him/her, they would have accepted his/her wishes and allow them to try and find their own ways. Those who force others to accept their beliefs are ones who don't have strong beliefs themselves and they see others with lack of belief to be a mirror image of themselves. No one likes to see themselves in the mirror.

Sounds to me like Buddha’s experience turning away from his riches, family and Hinduism. Many atheist then turn to experimenting with all sorts of spiritual practices and other non-theistic religions, new atheists usually to do a lot of research and studying trying to find answers. Doesn't this sound like the Buddha, when he experimented with many types of practices?

My reply : Gautama went out to find answers and he returned to his family after becoming a Buddha (long enough to teach his family what he found out). It was Hindu monks who taught him about meditation and the path on which he started his journey. Noone born with knowledge to meditate.

As for Atheists and their ways, I have a simple question - what DO you seek?
You say you are seeking answers, but do you know the question?
Do you seek existence of God? Then you are wasting your time since it is something you feel, NOT something your science could measure.
Do you seek happiness? Then stop wasting your time with Buddhism because it will not give your happiness which you seek, only understanding of your truth self and most people doesn't wish to see their truthself.

So what is the question and what do you seek?


By Herbert Von Karajan

But from what I read, you perceive that atheists are a bunch of insecure individuals who diss religious people. These are militant atheists.

My reply : Why don't you read through someone of the threads here and tell me what you think Atheists are?

So? You speak as if you're one path closer to eternal enlightenment. I don't think being obnoxious is one of core points in Buddhism.

My reply : And WHAT is Enlightenment?
Being sarcastic and obnoxious is my nature, it helps me calm the raging anger without resorting to doing something I attend to regret later.

Me? Likewise, I take whatever wisdom from philosophy or religions and use them as my way of life. I think each person should consider their definition of the meaning of life because that is the only way you don't misuse your life or let it go to waste. If your definition of Buddhism is true, I oppose it. Teaching or religion, it must be for the sake of happiness of All. Not just Humans, and fragile creations of universe.

My reply : Sake of Happiness? Of ALL? You're trying to make me laugh?
There is no Happiness of (for) ALL. What makes you happy most likely will not make others happy as well, simply because you are individual person (just like everyone else).
"If you wish to be Happy, then BE Happy".

Hitler did asked himself "Who am I?" Later he went on to became a dictator and slaughtered millions of Jews. For me, I ask "What can I do to benefit whole Mankind and Nature?". I do not think Buddhism is nihilistic as you described.

My reply : Wrong. Hitler asked himself "Why am I suffering?" and instead of looking at his own unachievable desire and needs, saw Jews as the reason for his suffering.
Brave men don't blame others for his failure, he blames himself. Blaming others is an act of stupidity.

As for you ... try being good to yourselves first. People who are trying to do good for others attend to lose their ways easily upon facing failures in size of the Great Wall (of China). Don't be like a Kite or a Fishing string, you could break half way there.

What do you mean by "...don't mix it up with someone's else Way of life?

My reply : It means that there are others who take Buddhism as religion because they still living a life as a normal person with family and normal desires. These people are still trying to find their ways and your views (which is OK by your standard) wouldn't do much good for them. It may upset them or shake their beliefs as well. That's what I meant.

I think Hitler, the jihad suicide bombers and KKK are also qualified to be part of "Essence of warrior", if your definition are right. They fought for what they think is best.

My reply : Thanks for making me laugh. When you (or anyone else for that matter) understands what an Essence of Warrior (or Zen Buddhism) means, we will discuss lenghly about Essence of Warrior.

Of course I take the challenge, depends on how the outcome it will be and it's purpose. If it's purpose is for destruction, it is ok to be coward. Better to be a coward than sacrificing what is noble and good just for that purpose. It is worst than cowardly if you choose to run away from your responsibilities as well.

My reply : Depends ON the outcome? Kid ... you can't be THIS naive for real.
If you know the outcome of each action you take, then you could have reach the state of Buddha by now. No one knows the outcome of your action because it (your actions) doesn't effect you alone, it effects everyone around you, and who knows how others feel about it.

Do Good for sake of Good, not for its Purpose. How you know it is Good? Ask yourself WHAT is Good.

I will ask you again in turn; Do you serve yourself or for whomever created you or preserved you? Do you strive for happiness of whole, and not for your own?

My reply : Serve? Happiness of Whole? Happiness for myself?
Why you burden yourself with so much desires? It gives headache just thinking about it.

For your question, I live today for nothing. I serve no one but myself. If I want happiness, then I will be happy. I cannot make others happy, so I be fair to others (which include not lying or taking what not belongs to me).

It is my way not be arrogant or boastful. I am here to dialogue, not to win admiration or to boast my ideology and win it based on sheer ego. I know also what I speak is from myself, not by dictation of others.

My reply : Arrogant, boastful and ego is part of the human nature. Defeating them doesn't require part in acting, its requires part in understanding and letting go.

Answerer

Well Seraphim, just leave everything to fate, itself. Although it is true that there are always some of us who will try their best to defend Buddhism (in its purest form), ulitmately, everything lies in the hand of fate. If future Buddhism is destined for corruption and misinterpretation, so be it, just don't get too obsessed with the urge to defend. Just stop yourself when you sense the need to.




:notworthy :notworthy

Seraphim

Well Seraphim, just leave everything to fate, itself. Although it is true that there are always some of us who will try their best to defend Buddhism (in its purest form), ulitmately, everything lies in the hand of fate. If future Buddhism is destined for corruption and misinterpretation, so be it, just don't get too obsessed with the urge to defend. Just stop yourself when you sense the need to.

My reply : Maybe true, maybe not. I never did like leaving things to fate.

I simply voicing out for those who is unable to voice their own opinions due to circumstances (mostly like technology of Internet unaccesible to to them due to geographical and political factors). Well ... someone ought to ...

Besides, if this is the form the west wish to have as its version of Buddhism, fine by me (not like I can do anything to stop it either). Zen, Thevada and others such as Mahayana started this way as well, I guess ... maybe it will bring some good to the West or maybe not.

Corgan Sow

(drats...wrong system) :banghead: :banghead:

Herbie.

Herbert Von Karajan

O.k, o.k, believe it or not, I accidentally logged into someone's else II account.

I just have to find out who's the Corgie out there...

And I've deleted my 20-minute rebuttal for Seraph...Now I'm too lazy to type again :boohoo: ...Cherio!