Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gothic_J · 08-22-2003, 05:50 PM

the 10 commandments apply to the isrealis alone. tis perfectly fine to slaughter half of the middle east when its their promised land.

I am referring, of course, to the biblical isrealis.

sodium · 08-23-2003, 06:10 PM

I hate to agree with Magus, but I think that in context, it's pretty clear that the Ten Commandments were meant as a kind of criminal law for the ancient Hebrews. There's no indication that they were meant to be universal laws which would bind them in their relations to foreign tribes, let alone rules for relations inside or between foreign tribes. I don't think you can read the Pentateuch and come away with the impression that God is a pacifist.

And yet, I find it hard to square Jesus's view (according to the New Testament) that evil should not be resisted, that we should turn the other cheek, with the view that we should defend ourselves militarily against invaders. Let alone, that we should do so to depose tyrants, or because some country might attack us some day if we don't get them first.

But then I'm not even a Christian, so I don't interpret the Bible with help from the Holy Ghost.

Veovis · 08-23-2003, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Frankly, I don't care whether it's blowing open somebody's head on a battle field or planting a knife in an unsuspecting victim's back in a dark alley. Killing is killing to me, no matter how far you wangle the morals. I don't think I could stomach it easily either way.

I'm in the same boat. I don't think I'd ever consider killing anyone unless out of defense of me or my family. Likewise, I would do everything in my power to prevent me from going to war, including moving to another country (It isn't a crime to conspire to dodge the draft, is it?).

I hope this isn't considered cowardly, I just think risking my life on a battlefield in order to fulfill the whims of the gov't would be such a waste when I could be doing more worthwhile things in another country.

Doctor X · 08-23-2003, 06:53 PM

Murder . . . Kill . . . It's All the Same:

Well, over on BC&H they are having fun with the "is it 'kill'?" or "is it 'murder'?" so purists can go there.

However, the OT has numerous examples of the diety--El, YHWH--demanding killing. This ranges from child sacrifice to genocide. For the theology of the period, it is okay to kill under these circumstances.

To Kill or Not to Kill:

Not an easy thing. This is one of the reasons I believe in a volunteer military. I am as unwilling to "run across the field stark naked at Jerry" as anyone else; however, I can rationalize it better in a WWII situation than in, say a Vietnam. There are other ways to support a country. One of the freedoms of America [Cue Battle Hymn of the Republic.--Ed.] is choice.

Anyways, not to hijack this into a "should we have a draft" or "what is patriotism?" thread, to return to topic, anyone can justify just about anything based on scripture. A person can state that, under the correct circumstances, he is perpetuating "good" by destroying "evil."

--J.D.

SiliconWolf · 08-24-2003, 11:45 AM

From this site:

Quote:

SDA Conscientious Objectors:

Many Seventh-day Adventists refuse to enter the army as combatants, but participate as medics, ambulance drivers, etc. During World War II in Germany, many SDA conscientious objectors were sent to concentration camps or mental institutions; some were executed.

Some Seventh-day Adventists volunteered for the US Army's Operation Whitecoat. The Church preferred to call them "conscientious participants", because they were willing to risk their lives as test subjects in potentially life-threatening research. Over 2,200 Seventh-day Adventists volunteered in experiments involving various infectious agents during the 1950's through the 1970's in Fort Detrick, MD.

andy_d · 08-24-2003, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Well the 10 commandments don't say thou shalt not kill, it says thou shalt not murder. War isn't murder.

But did Jesus make that distinction? Did he sanction violence as a mthod to solve your problems? Or did he perhaps teach something else?

pariah · 08-24-2003, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by //riot of disorder::
But the 10 Commandments say Thou Shalt Not Kill. It doesn't say Thou Shalt Not Kill Unless Your In A War. Why didn't God spell out things more plainly?

actually there is another thread on this. the hebrew translation is though shalt not murder. murder and kill are two VERY different things.

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08-22-2003, 05:50 PM	#11
Gothic_J Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New England Posts: 1,290	the 10 commandments apply to the isrealis alone. tis perfectly fine to slaughter half of the middle east when its their promised land. I am referring, of course, to the biblical isrealis.

08-23-2003, 06:10 PM	#12
sodium Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: British Columbia Posts: 1,027	I hate to agree with Magus, but I think that in context, it's pretty clear that the Ten Commandments were meant as a kind of criminal law for the ancient Hebrews. There's no indication that they were meant to be universal laws which would bind them in their relations to foreign tribes, let alone rules for relations inside or between foreign tribes. I don't think you can read the Pentateuch and come away with the impression that God is a pacifist. And yet, I find it hard to square Jesus's view (according to the New Testament) that evil should not be resisted, that we should turn the other cheek, with the view that we should defend ourselves militarily against invaders. Let alone, that we should do so to depose tyrants, or because some country might attack us some day if we don't get them first. But then I'm not even a Christian, so I don't interpret the Bible with help from the Holy Ghost.

08-23-2003, 06:53 PM	#14
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Murder . . . Kill . . . It's All the Same: Well, over on BC&H they are having fun with the "is it 'kill'?" or "is it 'murder'?" so purists can go there. However, the OT has numerous examples of the diety--El, YHWH--demanding killing. This ranges from child sacrifice to genocide. For the theology of the period, it is okay to kill under these circumstances. To Kill or Not to Kill: Not an easy thing. This is one of the reasons I believe in a volunteer military. I am as unwilling to "run across the field stark naked at Jerry" as anyone else; however, I can rationalize it better in a WWII situation than in, say a Vietnam. There are other ways to support a country. One of the freedoms of America [Cue Battle Hymn of the Republic.--Ed.] is choice. Anyways, not to hijack this into a "should we have a draft" or "what is patriotism?" thread, to return to topic, anyone can justify just about anything based on scripture. A person can state that, under the correct circumstances, he is perpetuating "good" by destroying "evil." --J.D.

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