Doubting Didymus

Intersting. You're saying that governments should lie to the populace to instill a false hope in order to placate them and make them 'more productive', at the expense of the pursuit of science. I hope you won't be surprised if that view strikes many people here as an utterly repugnant bile-raising nightmare straight out of Orwell?

hungry_student

I guess it's just a matter of perspective. Some might think that such a civilization would be horrible and oppressive and nightmarish...while others might think it would promote love and peace.

Please don't tell me about how religions cause wars...I'm not talking about religions as most people view them, I'm just talking about telling people that they are loved by and important to God.

Coragyps

So you really do advocate lying to people, huh?
This is straying pretty fat off topic...

Doubting Didymus

It was a thin topic to begin with.

So, HungryStudent, the question stands: Do you advocate lying to people about the truth of creationism in order to produce a better world? Simple question, no strings attached.

hungry_student

My answer:

In a perfect world, of course not.

In our world with our problems, I think it could be a helpful alternative, but certainly not ideal or even morally correct. But its a very hard question, because when I look at my own person, I would choose to not lie to anyone, because I believe that it is a sin, so I don't know why I feel that it would be OK for a country to do it. Again, I wouldn't say that it is right, just that it might be the lesser of two evils in certain situations.

-Matt

Doubting Didymus

And, as pertaining to the original context of this discussion, is the widespread teaching of evolution and prohibition of religious instruction in public schools such a situation?

hungry_student

In the context of suicide being the highest cause of death among teens...yes I would say that it is such a situation. As for the schools, I would say that it is not necssarily yes, but maybe passively. I know that the suicide premise is off topic...but I was referring to it moreso than the original subject. Do you completely disagree or would you concede that sometimes lying can be justified under certain circumstances?

-Matt

Doubting Didymus

First you would have to give me a convincing case that teaching evolution increases suicide, or that teaching christian principles prevents it. Fact is, there is no correlation of this kind. You will have to find something else to blame, and something other than religion to give credit to.

As for lying, I suppose there would be many situations I can imagine in which I would lie to save a life. In this case, however, the "lie" would cut the legs out from underneath the entire scientific enterprise of biology, on which we rely for a multitude of beneficial advances, and deal a stunning blow to the principles of science as a whole. So no, I would not attempt to obliterate the freedom of the scientific establishment in order to make people feel better.

Edit: I would have plenty of issues with indoctrinating helpless young minds into a religion in order to smear plastic happiness over them, too.

avalanche:ix

1. that's not what christianity teaches people. it teaches them they are inherintely evil and must do exactly as god commands them to if they are to be 'saved'. ergo they are not important or meaningful. this is what christianity teaches under the disguise of love.

2. that ofcourse isn't what the most virulent strain of christians would teach. they would teach that evolution is a lie, when it is a fact. they would teach all things to be lies when they conflict with the notion of god. they would teach their students to forego of their doubt and rather submit to authority and faith. this is not the hallmark of a civilized advanced society. we allready see an abominable level of over-all educational status in highly christian/religious countries such as the U.S, this would needlessly to say be hyper-enhanced if fundamentalist religious notions would take hold of society and particularly those in charge of the education of the younger generations.

hungry_student

I don't believe that it would cut the legs out from underneath the entire scientific enterprise of biology. I don't see how telling people that they are loved by God and they are important to His plan has anything to do with biology? Teach them evolution, teach them whatever the latest beliefs are regarding the origin of life, but just also teach them about God. I understand that this has now become a sort of existence of God discussion...but whatever.

Again I would respectfully say that this is a matter of perspective and personal bias. "inherintly evil"...maybe inherintly imperfect might be a better description, but if you want to look at it as "evil"...then granted. "do exactly as god commands"...depends on what you mean by do. The God that I worship demands nothing of the sort. He simply reuires that we accept his free gift. It is of faith, and not of works. So if you think that accepting a gift is something that can honestly be called a commandment, then OK. And yes, the Bible that I read does say that we are important and meaningful, I can get some quotes if you'd like, but hopefully you can just accept it cause I'm sure you've heard it before.

Honestly, and in my opinion, if we were to tell our children at a young age that they are important and meaningful to God, but leave it at that and let them form their own ideals as they mature, I think that it would dramatically reduce suicide, depression, and many other emotional problems. Do I have any proof of that? No. I'm not sure if there have been studies done, but as far as I know, public schools don't teach in such a manner, so I dono't think there is a real reliable model to work with.

Maybe commen sense, and reducing this conflict to its most basic form might shed some light.

one instance: we are not here for any purpose, and in a given number of years, our entire civilization (or universe, depending on who you talk to) will disappear much like the way it originated, meaning without purpose or intent. to a young mind, that makes their life seem incredibly unimportant and it really gives them no reason to try and make something of themselves. If they die, the world will be no different without them...except for their immediate families, which themselves are also cogs in the machine of evolution.

other isntance: we evolved (or not, it's kind of irrelevant), but we are special and unique and loved by God, who is going to use us to love others and bring kindness and peace to others. we then feel a burden, or inspiration, to fulfill our place in this great master plan (also, the whole Jesus story, but I'll leave that out of this example). If we kill ourselves, that deficiency will reverberate through time, leaving gaps that must be filled...do you get the picture that i'm trying to paint? now obviously i've reduced each instance to the extreme...but I'm just trying to illustrate why I think that teaching students that there is a God might cause a drop in suicides.

-Matt