Perchance

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the advice.

There are a lot of common areas on campus where signs are posted. So far, three of the four little "Worship Jesus!" signs that I've noticed have been in those places- message boards and on a telephone pole. The fourth is located in the office I share with several other TA's.

This was one of the reasons I asked. I'm not sure if that little sign violates separation of church and state. If it did, I wasn't about to put up something that might be interpreted as "atheistic," since I don't want to violate laws and the Constitution merely to get "equal time."

I suppose I was being a little paranoid. After all, I know there are other TA's who go to church, and who are active in several religious organizations. I suppose I do have a kind of ingrained assumption I've never questioned that while those things are fine, doing something that might be interpreted as "pro-atheist" (not necessarily anti-religious, since that is not my intention) would somehow be wrong.

I don't intend to discuss this in class- either the ones I teach or the classes where I am a student- unless something forces me to out myself. Being asked to lead a prayer or something of the kind, or being asked directly what religion I was or what church I went to, would, since I don't intend to lie.

4th Generation,

Thanks for the cautionary tale! I've already had one student e-mail me telling me he won't be able to attend class this coming Monday, because it's Yom Kippur- which is fine. What worries me more is that he told me he also won't be able to turn in the paper that's assigned that day until two days afterwards, even though he's known about the paper for almost a week now. I've tried to strike a balance between telling him that I really would like it earlier, offering him help with critiquing drafts, and the like, while emphasizing that a late paper with an unexcused absence loses a certain portion of the grade every day it's late. So far, he seems agreeable to bringing a note from his Rabbi.

Checking my e-mail is not going to be a problem at all. Several of my students are very anxious about this first paper, and so I've been bouncing ideas and drafts back and forth with them for the past few days.

-Perchance.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

galiel

Perchance, I just wanted to mention two excellent resources that can provide you with definitive legal information to guide you on this issue.

The first is the excellent site of the National Center for Science Education, whose focus is "defending the teaching of evolution in public schools" In the Resources section in particualar, there is a wealth of information including do's and dont's.

<a href="http://www.ncseweb.org" target="_blank">http://www.ncseweb.org</a>

The second resource is a well-researched, thoughful and comprehensive guide to "Atheists' Rights and Religious Expression In The Public Schools" written by Ellen Johnson, president of AA. (the subheading is "A Secular Perspective & Guide For Parents And Students). For some reason, some people here have an issue with AA, so in case you are one of them, I am providing the direct link to the PDF file of the guide so you don't have to search through the site (It is from the "Schoolhouse" section, in case you are interested in the other resources there)

<a href="http://www.atheists.org/schoolhouse/schools2.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.atheists.org/schoolhouse/schools2.pdf</a>

(this is the thinner version of the guide without the fancy graphics but perfectly readable, easier to download, it's about 350KB). I found it tremendously helpful in dealing with local science teachers.

Johnson's testimony before the Civil Rights Commission, also found in the Schoolhouse section, also deals with the issue of expression rights at public schools.

Hope that helps.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

Perchance

Thank you for the links, Galiel. It looks like a lot of good information.

I have nothing in particular against AA (though I don't particularly approve of the idea that agnostics are "gutless, with one foot in the god camp"), and have no objection against reading something they've written.

Thanks again.

-Perchance.

galiel

Neither do I approve of that statemet, but I take the position that in the pragmatic American system one doesn't look for perfection, one looks to see which organization/politician/vendor/community/plumber offers the most palatable, useful and effective service at a particular time.

Doesn't offer the purity of faith, perhaps, but it gets things accomplished. As with all things, YMMV

Jamie_L

I would think that these signs may pose a potential separation issue in and of themselves. If they are allowable, then the same standard must allow similar signs promoting atheism, or any other religiously-related viewpoint.

Jamie

Perchance

Hi Jamie,

I would suppose the same standards would apply, but I appreciate there might well be a difference between my own standards of "fairness" and what the law says . Which is why I am going to study it very carefully before I do anything.

-Perchance.

4th Generation Atheist

(Netiquette question: what's YMMV? )

Perchance: is the sign in the office you share with other TAs at another persons desk or in their corner, or in an area where you have to work sitting at it? If the latter, you're probably w/in your rights to ask that it be removed, or to remove it yourself while you're working. Same would apply to any atheist things you want to have up.

If the former, you can probably post whatever you like in your area as well. Any objections then have an obvious counteroffer from you. But be prepared for some interesting discussions with that TA! Have fun.

Perchance

Hi Fourth Generation,

I just got transferred into this office a few weeks ago. (They were shuffling TA's around to make room for the new ones, and to try to insure that a few veterans had desks of their own). The sign is on the desk I was told was mine. However, I had seen some documents left in the desk, and had thought that the other TA might not have finished moving out yet. Someone came in today and removed them, so I assume it's now mine. I also assume the woman who had that desk was the one who put the sign there, so I can probably remove it.

The other problem I might encounter is that I have a TA in the office who, last year, told me she was a fundamentalist and accused me of intolerance towards fundamentalists (because she heard me referring to sites like Jesus is Lord as "loony fundamentalist sites"). She hasn't said anything about it since, and she certainly doesn't act holier-than-thou most of the time, but I have been wary of her. I don't know if, perhaps, I might want to wait on putting atheist things up in the office.

It would be one way to stimulate discussion, though!

-Perchance.

Anti-Creedance Front

I think putting a "Darwin Day" thing up would be the equivalent of a Christian putting up a "Pat Robertson Day" sign. Like I said, I highly support 1st amendment rights. Let us not skirt the constitution as evangelists constantly do. Activism is AWESOME, but do it outside a public place. Besides, I've learned to keep my mouth shut when around people I have a problem with. You would get a lot of Christians in your class coming up and bugging the hell out of you.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Anti-Creedance Front ]</p>

Mark_Chid

Darwin wasn't an atheist.

Therefore the idea that celebrating Darwin promotes atheism is provably ridiculous.