Toto

This was discussed in a previous thread.

From Did Jesus Live 100 BC? by an early 20th c. theosophist:

Since this was written in 1903, I think the term "abortion" would be better translated as "miscarriage".

The idea of the Pleroma was taught by Valentinius, who claimed to have learned it from Theudas, a disciple of Paul's.

Peter Kirby

Toto, is this passage in Paul (1 Cor 15:8) interpolated or not, in your view?

best,
Peter Kirby

Paul Baxter

To IM,

While a big majority of NT scholars believe in the priority of Mark, it is not a universal belief. I think if you were to survey the arguments on that matter (and this is a case where most books just say "most scholars agree" rather than spelling things out) you would see that it is, at the very least, arguable. Of course if you take the line that Mark was written quite late, then add that te other gospels copied him, now you have "marshalled evidence" that the evidence for Jesus is late. Seems more fair to me, in the lack of anything else, to remain agnostic about the dating of Mark (and Matthew and Luke).

As far as physicality in non-gospel sources, I have no idea what you think you are talking about. (I use the NASB):

Rom 1:3-4 . . . concerning His Son, who was born of a descendent of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, . . .

[here a Jesus who was born, died, and rose again]

I Cor 15 has of course been mentioned already, but in addition to the claim of death and resurrection, it mentions Jesus appearance to particular people, of who at least Peter-Cephas was known to that community.

Galatians in the first verse refers to Jesus being raised from the dead (the notion of a non-existing being being raised from the dead certainly WOULD be unique, no?) and in ch 6 v 12 mentions the cross. (Did Paul just imagine a cross for some weird rhetorical reason? Why would he imagine Roman execution for his non-physical Lord?)

I'll leave Ephesians and Colossians (I believe they are Pauline, but some don't)

Phillipians 2:7-8 . . .emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross . ..

Again the cross. I'm sure some throw a gnostic interpretation here, but the unquestionable part is that Paul says Jesus died.

I Thess 4:14 [argued by some to be the earliest epistle] For if we belive that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Paul's argument, developed at greatest length in I Cor 15, is that because Jesus is already resurrected, those who believe in Him (whatever that might mean) will be as well. The case is severely weakened if there is no Jesus to refer to. And this is a serious flaw. How, you need to ask yourself, did the church grow?

I could go on of course. Why the epistles don't mention anecdotes of the life of Jesus will have to be a matter of some speculation. I'll also add the side note that the term "son of god", whatever it might mean, didn't have to refer to a non-physical being. The Caesars regularly divinized their predecessor after death so they could claim the title son of god for themselves.

There is also a limited amount of reference to Jesus and Christians in non-Christian literature pretty early on, but much of it is controversial. It is collected in, amaong other places, C K Barrett's book (I forget the title of the top of my head--something about NT background documents).

Just for fun, here's one from Galen:
We now see the people called Christians, though they have drawn their faith from mere alegories, sometimes acting like true philosophers. For their lack of fear of death and of what wil meet thereafter is something we can see everyday, and likewise their restraint in cohabitating.

By allegories, he is saying, if I understand correctly, stories about rewards and punishmnts after death. The poit being that Christians, unlike most Romans, believed that there was something better awaiting them after death.

Paul Baxter

Just haven't had time to read the Doherty article yet. The opening didn't convince me I needed to, but I may look at it later.

Layman

I'm surprised you give credence to these attributions. So you think the New Testament accurately conveys Herod's thoughts?

And could you give me a reference to your latter statement? It rings a bell, but I can't place it.

Thanks.

Ted Hoffman

double post

Ted Hoffman

I never appeal to numbers even popularity. I am stickler for every argument being weighed on its own merit.

I dont.

Midrash - prophecy fulfiled ( Isaiah 7:14) - no historical basis.
Read more about the real meaning of kata sarka (according to the flesh) - this was in line with the platonic worldview read Dohertys article here .
Read about how Plutarch talks of Isis and Osiris here .

Read about "appearance" (phaneroo?) and its actual meaning in the context - Remember, he appeared (last of all) to Paul - figure that (the meaning of "appear") out.


Isis was nailed to a "cross" and was resurrected too after three days - does that mean Isis was a historical being?

Ephesians, Collosians, Phillipians etc, nothing mentioning Joseph, Mary and the place of Jesus birth.
The death, suffering and resurrection of saviour figures (Osiris etc) is a common theme in most of the early religions - and was always allegorical irrespective of the nature of eheumerization.

Why dont we do this: cite a Pauline reference that unquestionably/irrevocably points to the idea that Paul believed Jesus was a historical being.

Toto

Some days, I think the whole passage was interpolated by second century gnostics. Other days, I suspect that the whole Pauline corpus was a product of the second century and attributed to a semi-mythical Paul. The alternative is that Paul lived in the late first or early second century, and the author of Luke-Acts wrote a fictional novel about him and placed it in the previous century, which would make sense out of Valentinius being a student of Theudas, who was a disciple of Paul.

I would like to know how someone with the standard view that 1 Cor is indisputably Pauline, dating to the mid-first century, explains this.

Steven Carr

Do you think the future Bishop of Durham, N.T.Wright, does not
share the belief in Markan priority?

Steven Carr

Perhaps the New Testament does not accurately convey the beliefs of Herod, or of the members of the general populace that Jesus was , Jeremiah, or John the Baptist or Elijah returned from the dead.

Actually, I am not sure if Wright thinks there were no precedents
for the resurrection of Jesus. Perhaps I am wrong.