Freethought & Rationalism Archive

August Spies · 02-10-2003, 04:41 PM

Yeti: I did not offer those events as examples of perfectly running states, but as examples of how some socialists chose to run things. The thread was asking how people would make new facotires... ill try to answer your questions later (i got a meeting)

Loren Pechtel · 02-10-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Me and Me
Communism doesn't create anything. It is an ideology that we believe in and it is the people that will create new factories.

The incentive is that if this group of people in this town need jobs than open up factories there. Simple

But where do the materials come from?

Also, jobs drive factory creation?! I can't imagine a more screwed-up economy! Factory creation should be driven by the demand for the goods it produces!

Loren Pechtel · 02-10-2003, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by August Spies
I would assume they build them.

(aerion, you should keep in mind that different economies function differently. "Pure communism" for instance would not use money, much less in the sense capitalism uses it)

*ALL* economies use money in some form. At the level of society, "money" represents materials and labor. A new factory needs a lot of materials and labor--ie, it needs money.

You could devise a crazy system with no unit of exchange but you can't avoid the fundamental idea.

Loren Pechtel · 02-10-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins
Also happens to be the same reason the prohibition failed. No else was doing it.

Prohibition failed because it was too easy to make alcohol.

Loren Pechtel · 02-10-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Me and Me
You are trying to confuse Leader with Private owner of the means of production. The two are completely different.

The Soviet Union was a dictatorship, which I a Marxist-Leninist support a Dictatorship of the proleterian, and work to overthrow the current Dictatorship of the bourgeois.

Who cares who technically owns the means of production. The reality is that authority rests with a few. Communism is an illusion.

Loren Pechtel · 02-10-2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Cretinist
I assume the question in the opening post is asking something more like "How do communists get people to do stuff without some sort of monetary incentive?" Well, it's fairly obvious that people do useful work all the time without the thought of monetary reward. Anyone who has ever had friends help them move or has helped friends move has experienced this first hand.

This is an informal barter system. If you are always needing help, never helping, how much help do you think you would get?

To answer the question though, it will have be more specific. Are you asking say, moon, how he would get people to build a factory? Well, maybe moon will ask a bunch of his friends to help him build a factory.

The factory still needs materials--materials that the friends do not have.

Me and Me · 02-10-2003, 09:27 PM

Loren Pechtel

The people in a fully developed communist country to want to own the means of production, For the same reason people now don't want to be fuedal lords.

You complained that authority would end up being the control of the few, yet this is the same thing that happens under capitalism. As for the remark itself, you do realize that ownership and leadership are not the same thing. Even the leading corporation owners know that, because most of them are the owners but allow the technical running of their to be done by different people.

beyelzu · 02-10-2003, 09:42 PM

The idea that money isnt going really restricts us o some sort of barter system which really isnt very effecient.

As for most things being owned by a few, please prove this assertioin me and me, that would really impress me. instead of just you spewing rhetoric.

Grad Student Humanist · 02-10-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beyelzu
The idea that money isnt going really restricts us o some sort of barter system which really isnt very effecient.

As for most things being owned by a few, please prove this assertioin me and me, that would really impress me. instead of just you spewing rhetoric.

Don't hold your breath waiting for either of the communist propagandists to prove their assertions, or respond when their positions are refuted.

They're the enlightened ones. The rest of us who don't want to live in their totalitarian state-- which brutally oppresses its citizens but for their own good-- are all blinded by "bourgeois ideology."

Me and Me · 02-10-2003, 10:10 PM

Beyelzu

Prove to me that the sky is blue, and I will prove that the majority don't own a business or any part of a business.

The vast majority of people make just enought to get by and don't own a corporation or any part of one. Do you actually need proof that most people are wage workers and not corporation owners, are you really that far from reality to not know that already?

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02-10-2003, 04:41 PM	#21
August Spies Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The Vine Posts: 12,950	Yeti: I did not offer those events as examples of perfectly running states, but as examples of how some socialists chose to run things. The thread was asking how people would make new facotires... ill try to answer your questions later (i got a meeting)

02-10-2003, 09:17 PM	#26
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by Cretinist I assume the question in the opening post is asking something more like "How do communists get people to do stuff without some sort of monetary incentive?" Well, it's fairly obvious that people do useful work all the time without the thought of monetary reward. Anyone who has ever had friends help them move or has helped friends move has experienced this first hand. This is an informal barter system. If you are always needing help, never helping, how much help do you think you would get? To answer the question though, it will have be more specific. Are you asking say, moon, how he would get people to build a factory? Well, maybe moon will ask a bunch of his friends to help him build a factory. The factory still needs materials--materials that the friends do not have.

02-10-2003, 09:27 PM	#27
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	Loren Pechtel The people in a fully developed communist country to want to own the means of production, For the same reason people now don't want to be fuedal lords. You complained that authority would end up being the control of the few, yet this is the same thing that happens under capitalism. As for the remark itself, you do realize that ownership and leadership are not the same thing. Even the leading corporation owners know that, because most of them are the owners but allow the technical running of their to be done by different people.

02-10-2003, 09:42 PM	#28
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	The idea that money isnt going really restricts us o some sort of barter system which really isnt very effecient. As for most things being owned by a few, please prove this assertioin me and me, that would really impress me. instead of just you spewing rhetoric.

02-10-2003, 10:10 PM	#30
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	Beyelzu Prove to me that the sky is blue, and I will prove that the majority don't own a business or any part of a business. The vast majority of people make just enought to get by and don't own a corporation or any part of one. Do you actually need proof that most people are wage workers and not corporation owners, are you really that far from reality to not know that already?

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