Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Zar · 05-27-2003, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
Whatever the justification, history will judge the war on whether the Iraqi nation can be rebuilt into a prosperous democracy or not. My objection to the war remains that I lack faith that the US (or anyone for that matter), can manage that in the long-term.

I'm glad we have you here to tell us how history shall be framed.

Quote:

But as likely the State Department planned, opposers of the war (presumably such as France) now need to consider whether they will stay forever focussed on the wrongness of the war, or join in attempting to rebuild Iraq & give the Iraqis every opportunity they can, however small that might be.

Yup! We wreck 'em, y'all fix 'em!

And if the opportunity is so "small", then surely this wasn't a brilliant plan along those lines along with it being none of our damned business. Yes, indeed, there are slim pickings for the pro-war folks these days.

Quote:

I don't think anyone is seriously proposing that the US should simply withdraw.

Only if you consider a good portion of the Iraqi people "nobody" for one thing.

echidna · 05-27-2003, 01:38 AM

Any constructive comments, Zar ?

Zar · 05-27-2003, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
Any constructive comments, Zar ?

You frame the issue a certain way, and I'm simply breaking your frame. Sorry if it spoils things for you, but I've argued the "justification" for this war endlessly already and I don't have much but bile for it now. And I haven't much respect for the now belated and yet also ubiquitous opinion that it is legitimate to invade any country to install anything we think it should have. It's a non-starter for me, you see. Not much else to say.

At any rate everything else I have said so far has been a legitimate counterpoint, IMO.

echidna · 05-27-2003, 02:20 AM

That's a no then ?

Jat · 05-27-2003, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peacenik
the Weapons of Mass Destruction?

It's been about 2 months since we finished bombing the hell out of a third world country allegedly because they possessed weapons of mass destruction(subsequently abbreviated and called WMD's by the corporate media to downplay the lack there of) and the risk that they may give those weapons to others or use them against us themselves. So where are the WMD's? If they possessed them, why didn't they use them against us? Where the hell are they? Why is this being swept under the rug? Why did the whole reason behind the war all of the sudden switch to the "liberation" of Iraq, which is also bogus because many people including Iraqi women are likely to be less free in this new post war Iraq?

To all you who supported this despicable criminal act, we demand answers!

Don't worry, like Afghanistan Iraq will soon be forgotten as they move onto Iran next. Iran has nukes, you know. I wonder if they are using the same "reliable" sources which said that Iraq had WMD?

Corwin · 05-27-2003, 09:27 AM

To be fair, the existance of Iran's nuclear program isn't from our propaganda, it's from theirs. They've discreetly admitted they're working on nukes. (Largely to put themselves in the same position as North Korea, I suspect, rather than the position of Iraq.)

ComestibleVenom · 05-27-2003, 09:39 AM

Peacenik,

So what if Saddam was pretending to have WMD? We'd be fools not to take him seriously.

Those of you who supported the massive and purposeful slaughter of innocent people in Iraq don't seem to care about the mass graves we're uncovering. No no no, the relatively few civilians killed as a result of Iraqi tactics are the only ones you care about.

Why is that? I think I know. You don't care about human life so much as attacking America's actions. That's sensible. Too bad Saddam's not still in power slaughtering far more people than were killed in the war eh?

(PS. Yes, my rhetoric is 10,000% overblown. Sue me, it's fun.)

ComestibleVenom · 05-27-2003, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zar

Thousands and thousands of men, women and children from all sides are dead, thousands more are maimed and burned, a nation is broken, priceless history decimated, U.S. credibility is on the rocks, terrorism is alive and well, and the powerlust of the White House is at a Zenith.

I agree. It was all so much more *tidy* when the far more massive slaughtering was safely ignored by the American populace. Then those damned yanks came along and brought out all that underlying chaos to the surface.

Shame on them, I want to go back to ignoring mass murder.

I mean *lol* it's not like anybody is going to resent America for their own problems if we do nothing.

The Stranger · 05-27-2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zar
echidna,

So, you're "astonished." Big whoop. I'm not impressed.

Thousands and thousands of men, women and children from all sides are dead, thousands more are maimed and burned, a nation is broken, priceless history decimated, U.S. credibility is on the rocks, terrorism is alive and well, and the powerlust of the White House is at a Zenith.

Regardless of what happened or the government's justification for war, I think that Saddam was worse and that the invasion is net beneficial.

Zar · 05-27-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna
That's a no then ?

Nice try.

You saying that my words are meaningless or worthless does not make them so. Other people seem perfectly capable of seeing my points and responding.

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05-27-2003, 01:38 AM	#12
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Any constructive comments, Zar ?

05-27-2003, 02:20 AM	#14
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	That's a no then ?

05-27-2003, 09:27 AM	#16
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	To be fair, the existance of Iran's nuclear program isn't from our propaganda, it's from theirs. They've discreetly admitted they're working on nukes. (Largely to put themselves in the same position as North Korea, I suspect, rather than the position of Iraq.)

05-27-2003, 09:39 AM	#17
ComestibleVenom Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 2,320	Peacenik, So what if Saddam was pretending to have WMD? We'd be fools not to take him seriously. Those of you who supported the massive and purposeful slaughter of innocent people in Iraq don't seem to care about the mass graves we're uncovering. No no no, the relatively few civilians killed as a result of Iraqi tactics are the only ones you care about. Why is that? I think I know. You don't care about human life so much as attacking America's actions. That's sensible. Too bad Saddam's not still in power slaughtering far more people than were killed in the war eh? (PS. Yes, my rhetoric is 10,000% overblown. Sue me, it's fun.)

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