hinduwoman

Luvluv, what is your henious sin?

Gurdur

I am deeply honoured and flattered, , and almost cheered-up !

Yep, thanks, already got that one PM, one only, didn't reply since I thought it might go unread till Monday or so.
No worries ! Thanks !

ex-preacher

Hey, maybe that could be our policy in dealing with terrorists - we'll just be so nice to them that they'll have to be nice back to us! If only the Jews had thought to use that on Hitler. Or those children on the priests. Or if slaves in the South had tried that on their masters (BTW, the masters would have loved your interpretation).

Your spin on the passage is exactly that - spin. A basic principle in textual studies is that the plain meaning of the text should always be preferred over a fanciful interpretation that smooths out the problems. Of course, with your approach to the Bible, you can always throw out anything that doesn't suit you. Why don't you hang on to the first part of that verse and throw out the last part? You might want to consider throwing out Romans 13 while you're in the neighborhood.


<strong> I like Shaw quotes, too! Here are a couple of my favorites:

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
-George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English
playwright

At present there is not a single credible established religion in the world.
-George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright

Gurdur

Dunno about the "less" bit, but birch trees are good company.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Gurdur:
<strong>

Dunno about the "less" bit, but birch trees are good company. </strong>

I can take a joak as well as the next person, but what would I need a tree fir? I certainly don't pine for one.

luvluv

ex:

"Hey, maybe that could be our policy in dealing with terrorists - we'll just be so nice to them that they'll have to be nice back to us! If only the Jews had thought to use that on Hitler. Or those children on the priests. Or if slaves in the South had tried that on their masters....

.... or if the Palestinians tried it on the Jews, or the Jews tried it on the Palestinians...

Nah... all this peace stuff is just crazy talk.

By the way, blacks did use this philosophy in the civil rights movement. It's the philsophy of non-violence, of redemptive love, of satyagraha. You have something against that, now?

Queen:

Sorry about the sarcasm, but you can't drop your left like that with the "where does my sense of humor come from" questions.

"Large portions of Earth are turning to Hell as we speak."

Preach, sister.

"Where do their bad attributes flow from? The devil?"

No, they come from us.

"If you become extremely good, do you also cease to be human? What do you become instead?"

No, you become completely human. You were made to be extremely good.

"Does it also work the other way around? Does love eat away the CAPACITY for bitterness?"

"So a person with a mental disorder, who thereby cannot control himself or herself, won't actually deserve to be PUNISHED with evil?"

Presumably a person would not have a mental disorder in heaven. I take it such a person would participate in the millineum, which is the thousand year reign of Christ during which Christians believe that those who did not have the chance to hear the gospel will hear it. I imagine someone with a mental disorder would fit that category.

I think so.


Just out of curiousity, what if I were to write my own thoughts on the subject down, what would that mean? Do theories have no justification in themselves or must they be attached to a respectable name? I am telling you that it is a pretty safe bet that nearly all Christians believe that all goodness comes from God and that it takes God to rid you of your sinfulness. Do you have any reason to believe that is not true?

"But people have no control over their desires for food. And the inablity to control oneself is WHAT HELL IS, according to you."

We both know there is a difference between needing food to live and joining Overeaters anonymous. Someone in O.A. might binge eat everyday far beyond what they need to sustain themselves. There is a pretty clear difference.

"What "love that I am suppressing"? You make less and less sense..."

Not you. The hypothetical bitter person.

"The same god who ordered non-bleeding virgins to be stoned to death?"

Where'd you get that?

"What does this "something less than human" look and act like?"

What am I, a prophet? I don't know. They probably look human but they wouldn't be polite company.

hinduwoman:

"Luvluv, what is your henious sin? "

The same as everybody else's. There is stuff in all of us, which if unchallenged, could make us really bad people.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by luvluv:

<strong>"Where do their bad attributes flow from? The devil?"

No, they come from us.</strong>

Why do they come from us? What makes you sure that they do not come from the devil?

<strong>"If you become extremely good, do you also cease to be human? What do you become instead?"

No, you become completely human. You were made to be extremely good.</strong>

Where is your evidence that we were made to be "extremely good"? If extremely good people are "completely human", are we all semi-human now?

<strong>"Does it also work the other way around? Does love eat away the CAPACITY for bitterness?"</strong>

You didn't answer that one.

<strong>"So a person with a mental disorder, who thereby cannot control himself or herself, won't actually deserve to be PUNISHED with evil?"

Presumably a person would not have a mental disorder in heaven. </strong>

But they would have it on hell, or earth if you prefer that term for it.

<strong>I take it such a person would participate in the millineum, which is the thousand year reign of Christ during which Christians believe that those who did not have the chance to hear the gospel will hear it. I imagine someone with a mental disorder would fit that category.</strong>

Firstly, my question related to the fact that mental disorders may result in people not being able to control themselves. You didn't address this point.

Secondly, what if they have a mental disorder that prevents them from fully appreciating your point of view?

<strong>Just out of curiousity, what if I were to write my own thoughts on the subject down, what would that mean?</strong>

What do you mean, "Just out of curiosity"? That's what you've been doing all this time, and you see how much it means in terms of sheer humor.

<strong>Do theories have no justification in themselves or must they be attached to a respectable name?</strong>

They must be attached to some evidence. Where's yours?

<strong>I am telling you that it is a pretty safe bet that nearly all Christians believe that all goodness comes from God and that it takes God to rid you of your sinfulness.</strong>

Which Christians don't believe this?

<strong>Do you have any reason to believe that is not true?</strong>

I have no reason to trust you.

<strong>"But people have no control over their desires for food. And the inablity to control oneself is WHAT HELL IS, according to you."

We both know there is a difference between needing food to live and joining Overeaters anonymous. Someone in O.A. might binge eat everyday far beyond what they need to sustain themselves. There is a pretty clear difference.</strong>

So it is therefore evil to eat anything more than the bare minimum needed to sustain yourself. Because from that point on, you're not eating to live, you're just eating because you like it.

<strong>"What "love that I am suppressing"? You make less and less sense..."

Not you. The hypothetical bitter person.</strong>

Can you describe more characteristics of this "hypothetical bitter person"? For example, this love that they are suppressing. To whom is the love directed? How much love are they suppressing, exactly? What kind of love is it - eros, agape, etc?

<strong>"The same god who ordered non-bleeding virgins to be stoned to death?"

Where'd you get that?</strong>

Deuteronomy.

<strong>"What does this "something less than human" look and act like?"

What am I, a prophet?</strong>

You're predicting a lot about hell that isn't in the bible.

Are you a false prophet?

<strong>I don't know. They probably look human but they wouldn't be polite company.</strong>

Could you describe more about what they would do that would not make them polite company?

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>

Gurdur

You do realise, luvluv, these two statements of yours are totally incompatible ?
You haven't thought this through a bit, have you ?
Allow me:
If we were "made to be extremely good", then our bad attributes cannot come from us.

I should hope so !
The mind boggles - psychomed distribution centers even in Heaven ?

I imagine such a person would enjoy participating in a Woodstock revival. Tell me, just what is your connection here ?

That we'ld be in for a hell of a lot of incoherence and half-baked nonsense.

I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It's so good to be out of the sun....

Hallelujah ! This perfectly explains why Christians have butchered and tortured each other over the centuries !

Birch trees.

It's in the OT. Don't you know your Bible ?

No, incoherent, self-contradictory, arrogant, possessed by hubris, and rather silly.

Libertarians ? You?

[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

ex-preacher

No, I have nothing against the use of passive resistance, in fact, I favor it. From my study of history, though, I think that method works only when two other factors are in place: democracy and media access.

That's why it worked for King and Gandhi and to some extent in South Africa, but would never have worked against Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, George III or Nero. It's also why it wouldn't have worked under the slave system in the American South. Also why it didn't work in Tianenmen Square or Hungary in 1956.

Neither democracy nor media access was much around in Paul's day. I don't think Paul had civil disobedience in mind at all in Roman 12. Have you read Romans 13:1-7 lately? Paul argued that all government (this would include Nero, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc) is instituted by God and that all who rebel against it are in rebellion to God.

My problem is with your ludicrous statement: "Almost no one can be consistently mean to someone who is consistently nice to them." That's a sweet sentiment, but it is simply not true. There are plenty of people who are consistently mean even when others are being nice. Would you suggest that we just be nice to the terrorists of Al Qaeda? Your policy may work in dealing with the lady behind the counter at Dunkin Donuts, but it won't work in dealing with criminals and dictators.

Koyaanisqatsi

Enough. You are simply seeing what you want to see and ignoring all of the "icky" stuff.

The Bible is quite clear; it is you that is muddled.

Worse, you repeatedly avoid dealing with any of the salient arguments in order for you to just keep repeating your own personal cult dogma, self-justifying it all with "christians can make up whatever they want to make up."

The cult of luvluv.