Freethought & Rationalism Archive

winstonjen · 12-03-2002, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadownought:

Whoa, whoa, hold on there.

You are saying the following:
1) If God made us so that we would all worship him and then go to heaven, he is not loving.
2) If God lets us choose whether to worship him or not, but throws us in eternal searing agony forever if we do not, then he IS loving.

Explain this, please!

Simple. God must be cruel to be kind.

Yeah right. God is mean and spiteful, end of story. I wonder what He would do if NO ONE worshipped him?

winstonjen · 12-03-2002, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:

You assume there is no third option (at least), which IMO a loving God would provide: if you don't believe, you're neither rewarded nor punished.
d

The third option is that if you never knew about God or Jesus, you would be judged on deeds, not on belief. If we don't believe, we go to Hell, according to God.

diana · 12-04-2002, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen:


The third option is that if you never knew about God or Jesus, you would be judged on deeds, not on belief. If we don't believe, we go to Hell, according to God.

Or maybe the fourth option. But point taken.

I can think of several options that would be fair to all (i.e., be consistent with a loving God), and none of them are biblical.

d

Shadownought · 12-04-2002, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diana:
Fallacy of the excluded middle.

You assume there is no third option (at least), which IMO a loving God would provide: if you don't believe, you're neither rewarded nor punished.

I assume the "you" above is meant for the Christians who advocate the idea of "Believe and go to heaven, don't believe and go to hell," right? This is what they claim; the fallacy isn't mine.

Quote:

The heaven/hell position of Xnty coupled with its claim of an all-loving god is one of its most ridiculous doctrines. Thank you for elaborating on that so eloquently.

I can't tell if the Thank You is sarcasm or sincere (see above), but this is the point I was trying to make- the two ideas totally contradict each other.

I am still waiting for Gemma Therese to explain to us nonbelievers. If this god exists, then he IS forcing us to worship him.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Shadownought ]

diana · 12-04-2002, 07:26 PM

Quote:

I assume the "you" above is meant for the Christians who advocate the idea of "Believe and go to heaven, don't believe and go to hell," right? This is what they claim; the fallacy isn't mine.

My apologies for misrepresenting you. I was unaware you were mimicking Xns.

(Can someone please help me get this knife out of my back? I can't quite reach it.)

d

Edited to add: I just reread where I picked that up and see my mistake. I apologize for being human. I won't let it happen again.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]

Pierre · 12-05-2002, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Supernature has no sound argument. Much less a theistic variant of it. Much less the specific christian version of the theistic variant of it! MUCH LESS the particular flavour of any sect of the specific Christian version of the theistic variant of it!

If you keep on down drilling, you will eventually found a one-man band that will make out a sound argument – if only to him-/herself. And he/she will start a flavour of a sect that becomes a sect that becomes a variant of Christianity that becomes Christianity that becomes religion.

That is the way all religions started.

Shake · 12-06-2002, 08:54 AM

Way back on the first page, was the following "arugment":

Quote:

My guess is that you would respond by saying reason is your ultimate guide. And this is where we differ. Scripture is my ultimate criterion because it is the Word of God. How do I know that it�s the Word of God? Because the Bible says so. I�m well aware that this is a circular argument. I am appealing to Scripture to argue for its own authority.

So, by the same "logic":

1. I am God.
2. I know this because I said so.

Wow! I just proved I'm God!

ImGod · 12-06-2002, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake:

1. I am God.
2. I know this because I said so.

Wow! I just proved I'm God!

It worked for me.

The best argument is to say "your god doesn't exist either" and walk away. No reason to discuss further unless they force the issue and/or you care. Avoid any leading questions and keep faith out of the discussion as long as possible. Once faith is out, there is not much else to left to discuss. Say "your god doesn't exist either" and walk away.

suitsusir · 12-08-2002, 12:00 AM

Here's one I used to use to flummox the nuns who tried to indoctrinate me years ago at school. "I'm such a good Xian that my soul is imbued with humility so I don't deserve the gift of eternal bliss" (I'm just a wretched sinner, remember). "So, as I'm so loving, generous and saintly I'd rather give up my allotted place in heaven to someone who is far more deserving than me" (or maybe even less - that's the Xian way after all) "and I'll willingly burn in hell for eternity, knowing I've done the most charitable thing for someone else." Now, what could be more Xian than that for heaven's sake?

Bible Humper · 12-09-2002, 04:04 PM

Hi Ku Bop.

I'm still watching this thread, waiting for your response. Could I get an ETA?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-08-2002, 12:00 AM	#59
suitsusir Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 20	Here's one I used to use to flummox the nuns who tried to indoctrinate me years ago at school. "I'm such a good Xian that my soul is imbued with humility so I don't deserve the gift of eternal bliss" (I'm just a wretched sinner, remember). "So, as I'm so loving, generous and saintly I'd rather give up my allotted place in heaven to someone who is far more deserving than me" (or maybe even less - that's the Xian way after all) "and I'll willingly burn in hell for eternity, knowing I've done the most charitable thing for someone else." Now, what could be more Xian than that for heaven's sake?

12-09-2002, 04:04 PM	#60
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Hi Ku Bop. I'm still watching this thread, waiting for your response. Could I get an ETA?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.