luvluv

Haven't read the whole thread, but I've never let that stop me before!

Let's think about this for a second folks.

Is there any reason why a perfectly wise, perfectly powerful being would not grant EVERY idle prayer of every living human being? Trust me, you do not want to live in the world where this is the case. (Ever seen that episode of the Twilight Zone?)

Some form of the categorical imperative should be in our minds when we ponder questions like this. Sure we want OUR prayers answered, but do we want EVERYONE'S prayers answered? In point of fact, wouldn't that be impossible? (How would God answer prayers which contradict each other, for example) So it kind of stands to reason that not all prayers can be answered, even by an omnipotent being.

So I would assume that you were not asking why prayers aren't answered, but why this particular prayer, which had a legitimate priority, was not answered.

You seem to be under the impression that all prayers offered under the threat of immediate physical harm should be answered. What threshhold, if any, would you propose? Should it be physically impossible for any human being to make any unwanted contact with any other human being under any circumstances?

My own opinion is that spiritual growth and the development of virtues has priority in God's plan, and while some of us might find the world you apparently envision cozy, it would be pretty useless in terms of developing certain forms of character. The ideal world is not one in which that man is restrained by God's direct intervention, the ideal world is one in which this man chooses not to harm others. Such a world must also offer the possibility that the man will make the opposite choice. Like it or not, if freedom is a virtue then the world we live in is the one which allows for the most possible good, even if, as a result of human choices, that good is rarely reached.

Now, does prayer work?

If by "works" you mean "getting you what you want, when you want it, how you want it" then no, prayer absolutely does not work (Thank God). If you mean by "work" does prayer focus your attention on God and get you to seek what you want in His way, on His timetable, learning to want what He would want you to have, then it works like a charm. Always has, and always will. Prayer is a means of changing yourself, not the world.

Now, if this is a discussion more on the problem of evil than of unanswered prayer, then we can do that as well. Let's clarify a bit.

Radorth

Oh I admitted long ago I was a hypocrite, the only one at II apparently. I suppose if you think "Christian love" is not calling your arguments what the are, or letting you see yourself in your own mirror, I would appear very unloving.

I don't feel bad though, since neither Sabine or Tercel made the recently posted "loving Christians" list.

Rad

winstonjen

I think you would do better by stating reasons as to why your opponent's arguments are 'inane', rather than by stating simply that they are with no evidence.

wade-w

Everyone:

Keep the discussion civil, and do not get personal. Also, let's get this thread back on track. Anymore personal or off thread comments and I will close this thread.

Radorth: In this forum, I will not tolerate comments such as your pine cone claim from anyone, athiest or theist. If anyone makes a similar comment in the future, please report it so that proper action can be taken. But note that this applies to personal comments only, not to ideas.

Radorth

Claim?

Rad

Goliath

You know, it might almost be worth praying if I could get a world where xians literally could not make any claims like this (or any claims whatsoever, for that matter) without backing them up. Gee, xians would be awfully quiet in such a world, wouldn't they?

Sincerely,

Goliath

christ-on-a-stick

I'm sorry but I still don't understand what you are talking about in relation to our exchanges in this thread (or any thread for that matter). Have I said anything like that? I don't think so

Thanks for clarifying (I think!?) FWIW, I just turned 30 and based on my personal studies believe it to be most likely that a person that the Biblical Jesus was based upon did exist, but that the recorded "Bible stories" were largely based upon oral traditions encompassing a mixture or reality, borrowed myth and wishful thinking.

Why, again, were my questions "inane"???

Radorth

I did, by presenting him with some alternatives he has already heard but has chosen to ignore. When one well knows that Christians have consistently answered, yet he presents the question as if there were none, s/he has met my definition of inane.

Rad

hezekiah jones

I would like to accuse god of having a pinecone up his ass.
And also of not existing.
You just wouldn't understand.

christ-on-a-stick

(I'm a SHE btw, for future reference... ) You have presented me (us) with alternatives that still have gaping holes in them. Yes, the Christians have consistently answered - with incomplete answers that still lack coherency and logical consistency.

Y'know, Radical-Orthodoxy-Person, at least spurly has been honest enough, when confronted "pointe-blanke" with the obvious and incontrovertible curiosities of God's "morality", to say... "I DON'T KNOW" (why). I would still like to hear what he has thinking/praying about as to why God commanded certain atrocities, but I give him credit for at least being honest about it.