Freethought & Rationalism Archive

kwigibo · 02-28-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Automaton:
<strong>Rimstalker: Ignorance is Strength, Freedom is Slavery, War is Peace.</strong>

Get back to the department of plenty, comrade!

GunnerJ · 02-28-2002, 03:03 PM

That's it! I'm off to the two-minute's hate! And I'll be thinking of you two when I'm not thinking about Goldstein!

Arrowman · 02-28-2002, 03:42 PM

Hey, I'm half Prussian. I resemble that! Anyway, my experience is different.

After losing many women's careers to childrearing, the residents of Adelaide's inner eastern suburbs decided to adopt a style of education that would indoctrinate children from very young ages to follow social mores blindly, know the difference between Chardonnay and Semillon, learn the basics of colour coordination in tennis clothing and organise a damned good charity fundraiser.

Most people, when they hear that the word "kindergarten" means "children's garden" think of a rather unpleasant scene with tousled brats wrestling in the mud and giving wedgies to their friends. The original idea was that divorced mothers would be like perfumed and bejewelled vegetables in a garden, to be separated from the herd at parent's working bees as the divorced fathers saw fit.

The system seems to have worked; witness the outstanding success of the first Formula 1 black tie dinners in the mid 80s, and just last week the willingness of Adelaideans to fork out $1100 to eat dinner while listening to Bill Clinton speak. We still have the same system, even though we delude ourselves into thinking that it's for education.

In reality, public school as we know it is a social training camp designed to break the will of the youth.

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]</p>

GunnerJ · 02-28-2002, 05:13 PM

Arrowman, did you think I was just making this up off the top of my head? I feel somewhat hurt that you'd assume so, and make a "clever" parody of my post to point it out, rather than just asking for a source. Why, exactly, did you respond as you did? It seems a rather immature reaction.

I originally found this out through an article by Robert Sterling titled "Apt Pupils" about the Columbine incident. Granted, Sterling's main point in the article was somewhat suspect: to "expose" a conspiracy by the government to orchestrate school shootings. But he sourced his claims about modern public education. When he talked about how the Prussian government started what we today recognize as public schooling, he cited Johann Gottlieb Fichte's Adress to the German Nation. I have only been able to find excerpts from it online, so you may have better luck searching your library or a university library.

Here are some other informative links though:

<a href="http://www.jaycross.com/jayhoo/germanschools.htm" target="_blank">Good German Schools</a>

This article has an emphasis on ADD, but it is very informative.

<a href="http://www.noogenesis.com/game_theory/Gatto/Gatto.html" target="_blank">John Taylor Gatto</a>

This page has links to many articles on the broarder subject of public schools' failings, written by a former teacher. The first linked article mentions the "Prussian Connection."

<a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1806fichte.html" target="_blank">Adress to the German Nation</a>

An excerpt from Modern History Sourcebook.

<a href="http://www.cafepress.com/disinfo/" target="_blank">You Are Being Lied To</a>

Link to <a href="http://disinfo.com" target="_blank">disinformation</a>'s store where you can buy the book in which "Apt Pupils" appears.

Perhaps it would do you well to not assume that anyone with a minortiy, dissenting view is just some conspiracy wacko deserving of all the derisive jeers you can come up with. In the future, please live up to the mattle of a freethinker by actually investigating new claims rather than ridiculing them off.

Arrowman · 02-28-2002, 05:46 PM

Ummm, settle down Rimstalker! I have no particular opinion on the sentiments expressed in your post and I do not wish to argue them with you.

My post was intended as humour only; not a veiled put down of your post, an assumption that you had made it up, an alternative for just asking for a source, a derisive jeer or anything else.

It was just a joke on the middle class, inspired by your post and in part by my own experiences of my children's kindergarten.

I like doing that sort of thing. I like to think I'm rather good at it. When I want to make an argument, I'll make an argument.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood but equally I think you're taking yourself too seriously here.

GunnerJ · 02-28-2002, 05:53 PM

Oh, well... silly me. Yes, I am taking myself too seriously. Sorry for being an ass. (Goes off to study the award-winning book: "Irony: It Exists")

Arrowman · 02-28-2002, 08:50 PM

No worries Rim; we all do that sometimes (take ourselves too seriously, leading to ass-like behaviour). I know I have. If I didn't "know" you from other posts as a reasonable person, I would have really torn you a new one (Rim, that is

)

I'll bookmark your references and read them some time; always good to broaden the knowledge.

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02-28-2002, 03:03 PM	#12
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	That's it! I'm off to the two-minute's hate! And I'll be thinking of you two when I'm not thinking about Goldstein!

02-28-2002, 03:42 PM	#13
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Hey, I'm half Prussian. I resemble that! Anyway, my experience is different. After losing many women's careers to childrearing, the residents of Adelaide's inner eastern suburbs decided to adopt a style of education that would indoctrinate children from very young ages to follow social mores blindly, know the difference between Chardonnay and Semillon, learn the basics of colour coordination in tennis clothing and organise a damned good charity fundraiser. Most people, when they hear that the word "kindergarten" means "children's garden" think of a rather unpleasant scene with tousled brats wrestling in the mud and giving wedgies to their friends. The original idea was that divorced mothers would be like perfumed and bejewelled vegetables in a garden, to be separated from the herd at parent's working bees as the divorced fathers saw fit. The system seems to have worked; witness the outstanding success of the first Formula 1 black tie dinners in the mid 80s, and just last week the willingness of Adelaideans to fork out $1100 to eat dinner while listening to Bill Clinton speak. We still have the same system, even though we delude ourselves into thinking that it's for education. In reality, public school as we know it is a social training camp designed to break the will of the youth. [ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]</p>

02-28-2002, 05:13 PM	#14
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Arrowman, did you think I was just making this up off the top of my head? I feel somewhat hurt that you'd assume so, and make a "clever" parody of my post to point it out, rather than just asking for a source. Why, exactly, did you respond as you did? It seems a rather immature reaction. I originally found this out through an article by Robert Sterling titled "Apt Pupils" about the Columbine incident. Granted, Sterling's main point in the article was somewhat suspect: to "expose" a conspiracy by the government to orchestrate school shootings. But he sourced his claims about modern public education. When he talked about how the Prussian government started what we today recognize as public schooling, he cited Johann Gottlieb Fichte's Adress to the German Nation. I have only been able to find excerpts from it online, so you may have better luck searching your library or a university library. Here are some other informative links though: <a href="http://www.jaycross.com/jayhoo/germanschools.htm" target="_blank">Good German Schools</a> This article has an emphasis on ADD, but it is very informative. <a href="http://www.noogenesis.com/game_theory/Gatto/Gatto.html" target="_blank">John Taylor Gatto</a> This page has links to many articles on the broarder subject of public schools' failings, written by a former teacher. The first linked article mentions the "Prussian Connection." <a href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1806fichte.html" target="_blank">Adress to the German Nation</a> An excerpt from Modern History Sourcebook. <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/disinfo/" target="_blank">You Are Being Lied To</a> Link to <a href="http://disinfo.com" target="_blank">disinformation</a>'s store where you can buy the book in which "Apt Pupils" appears. Perhaps it would do you well to not assume that anyone with a minortiy, dissenting view is just some conspiracy wacko deserving of all the derisive jeers you can come up with. In the future, please live up to the mattle of a freethinker by actually investigating new claims rather than ridiculing them off.

02-28-2002, 05:46 PM	#15
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	Ummm, settle down Rimstalker! I have no particular opinion on the sentiments expressed in your post and I do not wish to argue them with you. My post was intended as humour only; not a veiled put down of your post, an assumption that you had made it up, an alternative for just asking for a source, a derisive jeer or anything else. It was just a joke on the middle class, inspired by your post and in part by my own experiences of my children's kindergarten. I like doing that sort of thing. I like to think I'm rather good at it. When I want to make an argument, I'll make an argument. I'm sorry if you misunderstood but equally I think you're taking yourself too seriously here.

02-28-2002, 05:53 PM	#16
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Oh, well... silly me. Yes, I am taking myself too seriously. Sorry for being an ass. (Goes off to study the award-winning book: "Irony: It Exists")

02-28-2002, 08:50 PM	#17
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	No worries Rim; we all do that sometimes (take ourselves too seriously, leading to ass-like behaviour). I know I have. If I didn't "know" you from other posts as a reasonable person, I would have really torn you a new one (Rim, that is ) I'll bookmark your references and read them some time; always good to broaden the knowledge.

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