Ensign Steve

Hear hear!

Not to mention, that in searching for knowledge and the truth, we invariably come across new and more exciting questions. What is more exciting? Thinking that all matter is made up of water, air, fire, or earth, and leaving it at that? Or knowing that subatomic particles spontaneously pop into and out of existence, and trying to wrap your brain around that? The truth can be far more exciting than fiction, if people will open their minds to it.

Infidelettante

You are right in every point Feather. I was out of line and offer my apologies to all who posted on this thread.

JT

AdamWho

JTVrocher
No it is not a sad way to look at human nature and it has nothing to do with logic. It is the realization that there is suffering in the world and that we are desperately looking for ways to ease our suffering. This point of view is pretty much the foundation of Buddhism and it seems pretty straight forward and honest .

But since you have taken the quote out of context I will restate the original post.

BTW, do you have a theory why people still cling to the occult or are you just defending the occult?

Infidelettante

Originally posted by AdamWho
JTVrocher
No it is not a sad way to look at human nature and it has nothing to do with logic. It is the realization that there is suffering in the world and that we are desperately looking for ways to ease our suffering. This point of view is pretty much the foundation of Buddhism and it seems pretty straight forward and honest .

But since you have taken the quote out of context I will restate the original post.

Perhaps you are right AdamWho that it is a realistic point of view. In which case thank you for setting me right. I apologize for taking the quote out of context and will use greater care in the future. I think however the Buddist approch would be to withdraw from the suffering. As the individual can do little to change outer conditions he must find inner conditions to ease the suffering. As my knowledge of Buddism is limited I don't know if this is correct. Perhaps others will comment.

I did not mean to offend you. I have made a blanket apology to everyone on this thread and am happy to make specific apologies to anyone who feels I have treated them unfairly.

BTW, do you have a theory why people still cling to the occult or are you just defending the occult?

I will not attempt to defend the occult as I truly think there is no defence of it to make. I will however defend my occult practises. I will say at the outset [as I have before] that I do not think logic and reasoning apply to religious thought.

My own occult practises emerged from a life long search for meaning. I was raised in a home that was both religious and non-religious, my parents being on either side. My first attempt at religion was to get *saved* at sixteen. At seventeen I led a weekly Bible study for Jr. high students. After graduation I attended Florida Bible College. I was ordained and gratuated with a BA in Biblical education. At twentysix the doubts got the better of me and I stopped calling myself a Christian.

It took ten years to rid myself of the tarnish of Christian Fundamentalism. It left a hole that I thought would never be filled. I will not go into the details. I think it is enough to say the hole was filled in a way I never expected, by a Goddess. At thirtyfive I walked out into the back yard and made a large circle in the leaves and knew I had found my spiritual home.

I am at home with symbols and rituals and magic which form the core of the occult. I know my Goddess exists only in a mythological sense. I understand her as metaphor. That does not in any way lesson my devotion to her. She, and the myths that sorround her, both ancient and modern, give my life consistency and direction. The symbols and objects used in my worship of her provide a deep and satisfing conection to the world around me.

Mine is an experiential religion not a revealed one. It is what I learn from it that becomes the structure of it. As I practice my understanding of it increases and so does its' complexity. I find it even more complex than Christianity and much more powerful in its' use because it is so finely tuned to my own inner self. It is in every sense a reflection of my own mind and how I place myself in life.

The practice of magic is a good example of how logic and reason are useless to the occultist. Magic does not work by cause and effect but rather by meaning and pattern. I can not say that by magic I have caused any event or condition to come to be. I can say that some events or conditions came to be after I performed works of magic which expressed my desire for them. In the design of a spell or a work I search for words, objects, times, and places that symbolize my desire or that fit the pattern of the condition or event I wish to realize. These things are said to correspond. That is they are in sympathy with my desire. Magic is the use and manipulation of symbols to change an abstract desire into a concrete result. It is a change of form from the abstract to the congrete. It is the desire realized.

There is a thread on the nature and use of the will. In the practice of magic the will is the tool that truly works the magic. All the rest is affirmation of the will. All is to strengthen and empower the will in the search for ones desires. There is no supernatural aspect to it. It is a colorful and rewarding way to reconnect with nature and to keep myself focused on the needs of home and work.

I thnk it is important to remember here that occult knowledge is hidden knowledge. It is hidden, not evil. Many of us have high ethical standards when it comes to the use of occultic arts. I would never dream of using magic to help another without their knowledge and concent.

As to why others are occultists. I think there are some who want to feel the thrill of being so very different and there is that touch of the hidden knowledge that goes against what Mommy and Daddy taught. Those who go for the thrill don't last for long. It is not an easy religious path. It will take me another fifteen years to really become really good at. I will say this about my own understanding of divinity. I do not know if gods exist. I do not care if they do. I choose my own path and accept no other. Even the gods must leave me be. I know their hidden names and can do much to embaress them if they don't.


JT

Arvel Joffi

I think part of the appeal of the occult is that it's more personal than the big religions. People still want to believe, but they're turned off by the impersonal, arbitrary rules set down by the Head Bogeyman in the Sky. Personal spiritual power is very appealing. It's also a more intimate relationship with the "spiritual universe."

Supergirl

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JTVrocher
And while I'm here let's cover "everyone who's posted before"
me.


Supergirl
"the morons"

Well, you can really dish it out against the occultists can't ya.
God forbid I should make you sound like know-it-alls. End Snip


I hate being quoted out of context. And yes, moron is apt in this instance, because in your know it all attitude you totally misread the thread.

Believing in something that has irrefutable proof of non-existance is what it is all about. Like vampires, and faeries, magic with a k "because it is different from magic", the Three Fold law that was created by a man merely 50 years ago and the intent was to "sound cool" and more crap like that.

You do not need to be an occultist to inhale incense (which came from the east anyway) and make a bonfire or have reverance for nature.

So FYI go to my original post and read it proparly MORON.

AdamWho

Supergirl

JTVrocher has apologized to everyone already, so you might want to look up the apology before you get too nasty.

beth

Because it's fun!

Monk

"why is it that belief in the occult persist?"

Maybe because there are mysteries in life.

Strange things happen and theres different explanations for them.People would probably link these occurances to the knowledge and belief they have and see them as affirmations or oddities going against their accepted knowledge/beliefs.I think people looking from a more scientific viewpoint would look for explanations within what is acceptibly possible in scientific terms,A person who believes in the supernatural could look at it in more open terms to what is possible,But also could be less thorough in examining it.

I think it would be best to view things with an open mind to anything being possible if theres evidence to support it,rather than only say generaly accepted and observably repeatable occurance are possible.Take for instance the belief in ghosts,they havnt been scientificly proven,but their seems to be a large amount of sightings,Unexplained events,On film and from peoples experiences.To those that accept them as existing all of this reaffirms their belief,to those that dont they will probably attribute it to anything BUT them being real.Belief in the occult isnt neccissarily a bad thing,it just means people believe in something you dont,whatever it is has passed their truth/belief determining process but not yours.

I think there is a suspicion among people who believe in the supernatural and occult,Of the scientific establishment and the academic institutions that say whats acceptably real,Probably because they feel their experiances are discounted and not taken seriously,they are seen as crazy or lying,their views are rarely if ever engaged by the scientific community in a friendly manner,or are looked at from the experiencers side more(I mean like someone studying shamanism actually becoming a shaman).The scientific community too is probably reluctant to engage beliefs that can easily get overtaken by pseudo scientists and people who move away from an honest examination of something to simply finding any way to support their beliefs and views no matter how unsupported logicly.

I think there could be a good relationship between scientific/academic institutions and the general public if there was alot more effort to examine peoples claims of things,to reveal the bad logic of psuedo scientists,to be open minded and friendly to people(respectful) who make claims they experienced something(im sure some are probably just attention seekers but there are real people out their that experience things and arnt lying and go out on a limb letting it be known even in the face of possibly being ridiculed),And to actually try practicing to examine an experience if thats whats being investigated,or if its an experience,To be respectful to the person who experienced it and if unprovable to not portray them as automaticaly lying or crazy(perhaps this moves into the role the media plays in the relationship of the general public,the occult and scientific community).While not every claim can be investigated if there was atleast a continuing dialogue and more investigation than at present it would help alot i think.

Perhaps this highlights the interconnectedness between people and institutions and the social responsibility that can arise(depending on wether you want the rift between the two to continue and half truths to remain uncountered)(the rift can be seen apart from occultists,in the general community concerning cloning,GM foods etc,which seems to show people run away science,with no breaks or thoughtful concern of the possible impacts,all this also connects with many other aspects of society).I think the responsibility becomes greater the more you look at the impact it can have now and in the future.The less respect,trust and acknowledgement for the scientific and academic communities views the general public has, the less impact they have in the work they do,suposedly for the benefit of us all.The more distrustful people become the more unwilling they will be to accept new advances,in extreme cases it could give more voice to radical elements and social unrest.

Hmm actually one could say people have nothing to prove but to themselves,any scientific evaluation would be up to the parties invovled,but the scientific community needs to improve its image if it wants better acceptance in my opinion.If its not the place of our institutions to remove ignorance and deluded thought who's is it? I think ultimatly the individuals.We also need to recognize that we are all ignorant and deluded to some extent,and I think its a very personal journey we all must walk to try and free ourselves.

Correct me if im wrong but I just realized this topics question seems to be about occultists justifying themselves to you because you dont believe in the supernatural or hidden knowledge.The question sounds like it has automaticaly determined that occult thought should not persist,And its being asked from the perspective of someone whos made up their mind up on it.

I think the truth of the universe is just there,and your relationship with it is between you and it.Your awareness of it is entirely personal,People/Teachers can be guides but its up to you to examine it,test it and see if its true or false as best you can.I think truth reveals itself over time as people grow more,what we percieve can be decieving,even what we use to percieve can be deceptive.Occultism,Atheism,Science,Religion,etc it all comes down to what is the truth of existance,How do we find that truth,what is the path that we should walk.I believe there will always be differences of opinion on this aslong as different states of awareness exist.

Infidelettante

Originally posted by Supergirl
Originally posted by JTVrocher
And while I'm here let's cover "everyone who's posted before"
me.


Supergirl
"the morons"

Well, you can really dish it out against the occultists can't ya.
God forbid I should make you sound like know-it-alls. End Snip

I hate being quoted out of context. And yes, moron is apt in this instance, because in your know it all attitude you totally misread the thread.

Supergirl, please understand how sorry I am to have to revisit this. If I have quoted you out of context you have my most heart felt apology and my assurance that I will avoid quoting you in the future so as to avoid such an accurance.

Believing in something that has irrefutable proof of non-existance is what it is all about. Like vampires, and faeries, magic with a k "because it is different from magic", the Three Fold law that was created by a man merely 50 years ago and the intent was to "sound cool" and more crap like that.

I do not believe in vampiers. Nor do I believe in faeries. I have never said I do. You are mistaken. I do not spell magic with a K. You are mistaken. The Three Fold Law is karmic in nature. What one does returns to them. The concept is several thousand years old. Even if it were only fifty years old I would think it an very effective moral axiom.

You do not need to be an occultist to inhale incense (which came from the east anyway) and make a bonfire or have reverance for nature.

I can hardly believe people who are not pagans use incense. Are you certain of this? Whenever I buy incense I have to show my Pagan photo ID before they will sell to me. I always joke *do I look like a non-pagan to you?* It's always good for a laugh. Yes you are correct that almost anyone can build a bonfire but only Pagans are allowed to use them for religious purposes. This is because the government recognizes that the Pagans reverance for nature is so great that only they can be trusted with them.

So FYI go to my original post and read it proparly MORON.

Again, Supergirl I am sorry to have misread your post. I will try not to let it happen again.

JT