ShabbyChick

Thanks for the advice, but I think I'm quite capable of establishing a well balanced diet for myself and my family.

The intent of this thread was to ask vegetarians what they "believe" is ok and not ok to eat and kill because of their moral beliefs. Sorry if that was not clear in the first post.

ShabbyChick

Thanks Stardust. This is more of they type of answer I was looking for. I've found that there a lot of vegetarians have a different definition of what is vegetarianism. I will say, that I have a lot more respect for someone that doesn't eat any meat, than for one that claims it is morally wrong to kill animals, and then eats fish.... Just my oppinion, though.

Do you supplement your diet at all with vitamins, etc?

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: ShabbyChick ]</p>

SmashingIdols

ShabbyChick - Thanks for making that clear.

When I was a vegan, I did not eat the following foods and can supply the moral/ethical reasons why (if interested).

1. Any species of Kingdom Anamalia (from insects to primates, and all stops in between (yes that includes every variety of fish or shellfish, arthropods, chordata, vertebrates, invertebrates, etc. - all Anamalia)

2. Any product produced by Anamalia:
a. Eggs
b. Dairy products
c. Skins or leathers (did not purchase or use)
d. Insect products
1. Clarifier for beer
2. Food dyes, like that used for caramel or soda.
3. Honey or any other insect products (wax, etc.)
4. Clearly no larvae or eggs (not that many would).

3. Any product which uses any product of Anamalia in some step of its production, whether or not the final product contains it:
a. Refined Sugar
b. Beer and numerous liquors
c. Numerous soda beverages

4. Any product which contained any amount of any of the products listed above from any of the categories below.
a. Food containing these products.
b. Clothing (no leather, wool, or products using animal dyes) using any of the above products.
c. Household Products containing said produts.
d. Hygeine Products containing said products.

5. Any product tested upon any member of Kingdom Anamalia.
a. Medicines that are animal tested - from cold remedies to birth control pills.
b. Household products that are animal tested.
c. Vaccinations (we did not vaccinate our baby).
d. Hygeine or fashion products animal tested - shampoos, soaps, conditioners, make-ups (my wife, not me), deodorants, shaving gels and razors, skin conditioners (many contain lanolin as well, which is also an animal product).

This is a vegan diet, which I practiced to some degree for most of 12 years (slowly adding products as I came to understand what ingredients and processes were used).

If you want explanations for each of the products listed please let me know.

Hope this helps, and sorry for the rants!

(Editing for correctness, inclusion, and clarification)

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]</p>

Pensee

Hey Shabby! Seafood was the hardest thing for me to give up. I was raised on it. My dad's side are all fishermen living off a bayou in Louisiana. As tasty as crawfish are, it has to be absolutely horrible to be boiled alive. Once I let myself think about it, I couldn't eat it or any other meat/seafood anymore.

Yes, I do supplement my diet with vitamins, but only when I think about it. I've been really scatter-brained lately and so that's probably only 20-30% of the time I actually remember to take my vitamins. I know, I need to get better. I'll be completely finished with school next Tuesday (thank the universe!), so maybe then I'll be able to concentrate better.

Happy Wonderer

It is a question I am sometimes asked when people first find that I don't eat meat, and it has become slightly annoying. I discover that frequently the questioner isn't really interested in why I don't eat meat, but is more interested in exposing my hypocrisy. "So, you don't eat meat, but you have leather in your shoes?" "So, you don't eat meat, but would take a medication based on an animal product?" Of course, if you aren't a hypocrite then you are a fanatic -- "So Mr. X won't even RIDE in a car with leather seats? What a wierdo!"

Turn the question around for a second. Why do meat eaters eat meat? Are there any meats that you wouldn't eat? Why not? Is it O.K to eat dogs? Whales? Chimps? If Chimps are O.K., why not Humans? If you won't eat dogs, is it O.K. to perform cruel medical tests on them? How about whales? Humans?

(Consider the controversy over the Seoul Olympics and the Hot Dog vendors. With real dog meat!)

The above is supposed to be humourous but reading it I can sense that I'm a bit more annoyed by the questions than I thought. (Maybe it is B-12 deficiency finally catching up with me .) I'll eat what I please, thank you. I'll make no judgements about what you eat, O.K.?

I find more judgement by meat-eaters about veg'ism than I ever see expressed the other way around. Do vegans really fight when their friends try to eat a hamburger? I'm sure some people can get annoying about it, but that hadn't been my experience before I became sort-of vegetarian. Now everybody wants to tell me what to eat! (Although after this long my relatives, at least, leave me alone.)

/rant. Sorry for getting off track. Now to answer your question. I find that I'm an ovo-lacto vegetarian with the exception of steamed clams, which are the only food of the gods. In principle I don't think there is anything wrong with eating fish except the fact that we are wiping out the world's fisheries. Another problem with fish is that they are finding appalling levels of heavy metals in the fatty tissues of some fish, including species that were previously considered safe. I also grew up eating a lot of fish and don't like it much anymore.

I think that factory farming can be extremely cruel, difficult for the environment, and has possible future health risks for consumers of factory anmials. I could cite lots of vegetarian propoganda here, but you would be bored. Just take it as what I believe. (I have a slight connection to Dubuque Pack and might be able to get you a visit to a feedlot or packing house if you really want to spoil your dinner...)

Therefore, I try to limit my contributions to the factory farming industry. I'm not totally consistant (I'm sitting in a LEATHER CHAIR!) but heck, it makes me feel better.

Speaking of feeling better, I did notice that I felt better after meals once I became a more-or-less vegetarian (about ten years ago.) It is one of the reasons I continued. I wasn't really expecting there to be a difference but it was there. I find that not drinking milk also helps.

I fell into veg'ism because I was dating a vegetarian (who is now my wife) who is vegetarian. In stark contrast to the "preachy vegetarian" stereotype, she was not at all bothered by my eating habits. It just turned out to be easier as a couple. I also discovered that it makes cleaning up the kitchen a hell of a lot easier if you are vegetarian!

So I wouldn't claim that my eating habits follow any particular moral framework. I have made some choices for what I consider to be logical reasons and others based on what I like to eat. I wouldn't go out and try to convince someone that they are wrong for what they eat -- although I get really pissed off at groups like the Milk Board for pushing an economic agenda as a health issue...

There aren't a whole lot of health downsides for a semi-vegetarian. I do take B-12 (when I remember :-)) but otherwise it is quite easy to have a balanced, tasty, and nutritionally complete diet. Vegetarianism isn't a strange new idea in eating habits -- AFIK Hindus have been that way more or less forever, ditto for some Buddhists, and most of the "underclasses" have until recently had only limited access to meat. (Think refrigeration...)

HW

Oh, a really excellent cookbook is "Simply Heavenly, the Monastery Vegetarian Cookbook" by Abbot George Burke (Saint George Press.) I recently won a Chili cook-off with their "UnBeef" chili recipe. It won against all the MEAT chilis! (There was no vegetarian category.)

(Edited for spelling and tone...)

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]</p>

DRFseven

I think the reason some who are vegetarians on moral grounds distinguish between fish and other animals is because they are objecting to animals having to suffer so we can eat them and they don't think of the way fish are grown as contributing to suffering. The perception is that fish pretty much lead the normal lives they would naturally live anyway. And the reason they want to eat fish is because seafood is the best source of Omega 3 fatty acids for adults (breastmilk for infants), but they can also be obtained from soybeans, nuts, seeds, and supplements.

Yes, my husband has done it for 30 years with NO supplements. He's 52 years old and in great health. I eat fish once a week (and some other meats a few times per year, like maybe five times), don't take any supplements, and, at 51, I'm in good shape, too, but, I have to say, not as good as he is. I've got a lot of endurance for physical exertion, but can't come close to his level of output and his heartrate is much slower (a good sign of a healthy heart). So I probably will give up the small amount of meat I do eat, but I don't know when.