wdog

vander,

there is a huge difference between worship and respect. and respect, especially with elder children is more or less earned by our giving to them as parents. worship only really can serve to massage the ego of someone, like adulation for some dictator

look at the eve situation, what loving parent sets up their children with temptation after having created them as weak in that temptation (the tree)? and then acts surprised when they actually succumb to the temptation? and then punishes the children of eve, who had nothing to do with it, because of the 'original sin'? real love would be to not put the tree there in the first place as we would do with our own children.


what loving parent would not welcome their child home at ANY time for the simple transgression of 'living life on their own terms'?

K

Vanderzyden:

I never claimed power over life and death. However, my wife and I definitely did create our children. There was nothing supernatural involved. I have real physical children. I guess you could say that we also have quite a bit of power to cause death, but of course we'd face a stiff societal penalty for exercising that power.

We do demand respect from our children while they are growing up. I would hardly call that worship. This demand for respect is relaxed as they grow up and learn to care for themselves and think on their own. At that point, I will demand nothing. If they still respect me when they've grown, it will be only because of the example I've shown them in living a life of personal integrity.

When they are punished, it s only to protect them and prepare them to operate as a member of society. I would never, ever, ever (can I say that enough?) punish them for revenge or because I wasn't worshipped. That would be a particularly cruel way for a parent to behave.

K

wdog:

Well said. As a father, I find it disgusting that people could label such a cruel and uncaring God, "Father".

Vanderzyden

Mageth,

I mean no offense whatsoever, and I do not know a thing about your parents, but your post begs the question:

Is it at all likely that your parents were "Christian" in name only? Is it possible that they gave assent to Jesus of Nazareth but did not really believe in him?

Well, I will tell you, many people are superficial Christians. Jesus said it himself:

Also, you have not yet explained WHY it is that "why" questions are unnecessary. You simply repeat this apparently unsubstantiated claim. Here's an example of a why question:

One man betrays his friend. He is not forthcoming with an explanation. Unable to conclusive arrive at the answer, his friend crys out to him "Why did you do such a thing?"

Surely you won't tell me that "Why" isn't justified in this case. Perhaps, then you could provide a general explanation.

I should also note that you claim to have "discovered enough information", and yet you have completely rejected an entire category of inquiry. Again, I am speaking of "why" questions.

Finally, Mageth, please do not rely upon me to "provide the evidence". The evidence is there. You, however, won't admit the possibility that you are dismissing or overlooking it. In fact, you insist that your search is complete.

Still looking,

Vanderzyden

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Vanderzyden

Yes, there are many things that I regret believing, such as:

I am my own.

Vanderzyden

Philosoft

How many times are you going to rehash this without explaining how you know it? How do you know what non-logically-contradictory actions are possible with an omnipotent being?!

<strong> Nice try. Please show that choice necessarily entails good and evil.

<strong> Simply brilliant, old bean. Just throw out an undefined, inclusive phrase like, "general human experience" and claim it a priori supports your argument.

<strong> Once again, from the top. Because he creates them with his divine foreknowledge of their future actions.

<strong> You're loony.

<strong> Absolutely wacky, old bean.

<strong> Once again, how do you reconcile this with omniscience?

<strong> Well, it gives certain players unrestricted power to set the pay scale artifically high for the rest of the league. That's why they implemented the salary cap.

K

Philosoft:

I knew there had to be a supernatural explanation for those ridiculous salaries.

Philosoft

It was either that or Steinbrenner. And I refuse to believe he exists.

Vanderzyden

Yes, there are many things that I regret believing, such as:

I am my own.

Vanderzyden

Vanderzyden

K,

May I emplore you to consider things carefully before you respond. You employ very bold terminology, and yet you provide no explanation.

So, you created them? Tell me, then, how did you produce mind from non-mind? Or, what can you do to demonstrate that the mind is only the brain? Tell us, how did you decide what was just right for the gestation environment, or for the specialized external enviroment in which they now reside? Please enlighten us, what do you know about the origin or energy and matter, which comprises their physical frame?

On what grounds do you demand their respect at all?

Protect them from what?

I raise these questions in order that I may understand the justification for the beliefs you are sharing with us. I, for one, am curious about the substance behind these broad claims you are making.

You must remember that it is you who raises the issues of "punishment for refusal to worship" or "punishment for revenge". This is not biblical--at least to my knowledge. You will recall that hell is not so much a place, as it is a condition.

It is a choice.
It is a rejection.
It is a refusal to relinquish one's vanity.


Vanderzyden