The Resistance

Yes, I'm 100% sure. Not when I first left Christianity, but now I couldn't believe in Christianity no more than I could believe that two and two made five.

Sephiroth

100%. The Bible contradicts history and science way too much to have any chance of being true, IMO.

wade-w

Helen:

I am 100% positive that the god of Abraham is the myth of a tribe of bronze age nomadic herders. The Old Testament has no more relationship with reality than the mythologies of the Greeks or Egyptians of the same time period. Therefore Jesus, if he existed, could not be the son of said God. Thus I am 100% certain that xtianity is not true.

Mad Kally

"Religion is all bunk"

-Thomas Edison

99Percent

You can never be 100% sure a god exists. If you are then you know god exists and if you know god exists then it ceases to be god.

The paradox is that theistic faith requires you to be 100% sure, or else the foundation of your belief falls apart.

I am 100% sure Christianity is not true in the same way I am 100% sure married bachelors don't exist.

bluefugue

I'm not 100% sure of anything. It is my best guess that Christianity is false, just as it is my best guess that there is a computer monitor a couple of feet in front of my nose.

99Percent

Iesus, you put it differently but the conclusion is the same: Precisely because I know my computer monitor is 2 feet in front of me, I know Christianity is not true.

Gregg

No offense to Helen, but I think she's making a bit of a bigger deal of this than I intended.

What I was trying to say is that when a person who's more or less familiar with the principles of scientific thinking, logic, etc. is strongly pressed to assign a probability for something being true or not, chances are he won't say, "I'm absolutely, positively, 100% sure that's not true" or "I'm absolutely, positively, 100% convinced that's true." Although he may be PERSONALLY convinced that said thing is 100% not true, he knows that from a strictly objective standpoint he has to allow the teeniest, tiniest probability that it COULD be true. I don't think there's any way you could actually calculate exactly how much probability you should allow--that's pretty subjective. Actually, for this board, 1% was probably WAY too high. 0.0000001% orless is probably more like it.

Gregg

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Gregg ]</p>

David Bowden

A cruise ship with irreparable hull damage, no matter how nice the buffet menu or the destination listed on the ticket, is just not worth setting sail in. I am 100% certain that I will not board such a craft. I am quite reasonably certain that it will not deliver as promised.

Helen, that's a fascinating question, but before I could possibly answer it directly, I'd have to know specifically what "Christianity" represents in your question, since the word means different things to different believers (and nonbelievers).

For instance, with regard to the possible statement: "The universe, as we experience it, exists and could cease to exist, all at the whim of a superentity" - I'd technically be agnostic, with no reason to believe that such a statement is true, but no way to prove it false, when you get right down to it. I'm not 100% sure such a superbeing doesn't exist. But I'm more comfortable honestly doubting the statement "a superbeing exists" than asserting it without more reason than "this venerable religious tradition insists it's true" plus "some other individuals have felt it, and I feel like I've felt whatever they think they've felt, too".

There are some obvious statements that might comprise Christianity which I would certainly agree with, such as, "Each day has enough trouble of its own" (Matthew 6:34). However, with regard to many other possible statements Christianity might make about the world, its God, or humanity, I'm 100% sure they're false.

For instance, if Christianity says that Genesis 1-11 is reliable history, I'm 100% sure that Christianity's wrong about that. If Christianity can't hold together without Genesis being historically reliable, then no matter what I find true in Christianity, the whole thing is 100% untenable - I can be 100% sure it's false enough not to be worth devoting myself to.

Some constructions of "Christianity" depend on Genesis being history (whence original sin, if Adam and Eve didn't disobey God?); some do not ("original sin" might not be a necessary Christian doctrine, or perhaps another explanation for it is possible).

This is the sort of thing I'd need to know about Christianity as you mean it, in order to answer the heart of your question most coherently.

Again, if Christianity is true if and only if "Jesus never contradicted his own teaching" - I'm 100% sure that Christianity is false, at least on this particular matter. (For example, in John 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. But in John 8:14 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true.)

But if Christianity can be true if "Jesus' teachings sometimes contradict one another" then I of course cannot possibly show a proof text disputing it, and I'd have to argue against that element of Christianity on other terms.

If Christianity, as you mean it, says that its teachings are infallibly correct and perfectly transmitted from one generation of believers to the next, I'm 100% sure Christianity is wrong, since its teachings have changed over time. But if Christianity in your eyes can change one or more of its doctrines without becoming a false religion, it would be harder to answer that question, unless I argued that the concept of an eternal truth that changes over time is absurd and therefore unbelievable. It just depends on what Christianity really is, as you mean it when you ask that opening question.

I suppose I'd need to evaluate a list of the necessary and sufficient elements of the Christianity you're talking about, in order to know how to answer your question most honestly.

I think that this is a very interesting question and I'd love to chew on it awhile, but I don't want to waste that effort on a straw man created by me.

So Helen, I guess what I'm saying is: by "Christianity", you mean what, exactly? What specific elements do I have to consider, in order to know whether I think that the whole compound is 100% false or 99% false, or 100% true, etc.?

Or do I simply have to be able to demonstrate one serious flaw in the equation in order to show why the whole thing isn't quite coherent?

What constitutes 100% certainty of Christianity's falsehood in your opinion?

-David

PS - Interesting related questions include:

"My sureness of truth about what percent of Christianity (3%? 51%? 94%?) amounts to saving faith?"

"How much doubt is a true Christian capable of having? 1%? Even more?"

...and...

"When evaluating a religion, how much of it do you have to be sure is false, in order not to give it any more heed as a potentially promising worldview for yourself?"

(To any theists, I'd love to read a new thread explaining your beliefs with regard to any of these questions. If I weren't so lazy, I'd make the original post myself. )

-D.

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden ]</p>

schu

Helen has abandonded her thread or taken some time off.

I for one would like to see her respond to these well thought out posts. She responded to a few of the early ones, but there is lots more food for thought here and I would love to see her responds.

It seems to me that if you lack 1% of your faith that you might be subject to losing more of your faith! Can one just stay at the 99% level? Can reading post such as those on this thread change your level of faith? Can you find no compelling reason for skepticism? Or do you just have an emotional attachment to your faith?

Yours in skepticism: You 1% me 100%

Schu