Jobar

Hi QoS. Sounds to me like you are kind of required to do this to keep the peace in your family. Now, we who know you know extremely well that these people don't stand a snowball's chance of converting you. So, you have to decide how to play this.

I think I would go into the discussion with three central questions.

1. What do you believe?
2. Why do you believe this?
3. Why do you say *I* should believe as you do?

Decide where you want to make your stand. If #1, you can demonstrate that other god-believers don't believe in anything like whatever they say. (No two theists believe in exactly the same god.)

If #2, you can bring up the historical, logical and scientific arguments against theism- no historical Jesus, Biblical contradictions, lack of any rational arguments for EoG, age of Earth, fierce disagreements among Christian denominations, so on and so forth.

If #3, you will undoubtedly be offered the choice of Jesus or Hell, either sugar-coated or straight up. At this point, the Problem of Evil, and the wildly differing things that other religions would have you believe (or else suffer *their* hells), and the contradiction of an omnibenevolent God who allows an eternal torture chamber (infinite punishment for finite sin) can be brought out.

You have to walk a thin line to stay polite, yet unyielding.

I think my own unstated agenda would be to convert *them*! If one of them lost sleep over my probing, or even questioned their own faith, I'd walk around with a grin for days. Ask them who was Jesus' grandfather, great-grand-father, etc., then show that the Bible says two different things. Ask if God punishes the sons for the sins of the fathers. Ask why we modern day humans never see any indisputable (part-the-Red-Sea type) miracles.

Hell, you know the drill. I think your main problem is going to be keeping from laughing in their faces!

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by steadele
Depends what you mean by "respect". There are many views that I dont respect in the regard that I do not think they are true or correct, but I still do not mock or ridicule them.

To me, respect means some degree of esteem. I cannot bring myself to show esteem towards a viewpoint that, as a woman, I am automatically inferior to a man, or that, as an atheist, I am a fool.

With my parents present, I will treat everything as politely as possible, but I can't see myself saying, "So you believe that it's correct to beat infants? Well, I can respect that. It sounds like a very respectable thing to do." I'm not saying the christian will uphold such things, but I have seen these beliefs defended by various fundamentalists on the web.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Except we aren't talking about reasonable people. The reasonable people aren't causing anyone a problem.

This guy is admittedly not as reasonable as I could expect. A truly reasonable person isn't going to try to change my mind : he is going to tolerate a viewpoint different from his.

OTOH, I don't know (for sure) that this guy is as bad as some of the rabid fundies that we sometimes encounter online. So maybe there's hope for him. I'll start out with politeness, certainly, but meekly accepting condescension and veiled insults ("You're a fool. I didn't say so, the bible said so") isn't my style.

Queen didn't phone him up to tell him everything he believes is wrong. He wants to change her so that she will no longer exist as an Atheist.

Quite right. Except he doesn't see it that way - he thinks of it as saving someone from a horrible fate.

That reminds me of when the lady whose piano God tuned came into our house and asked about me, and my mother said, "She lost her faith." I don't want to contradict my parents in front of strangers, so later on I said, "Mum, how would you like it if I said that you were losing your cancer? Or if you were an African slave way back in the days before the Civil War, and you escaped north, and someone said that you had lost your master?"

I think she saw the difference. If they express it in that way on Monday, I am going to chime in that it's losing my faith the same way a hostage can sometimes lose their terrorists. I think of my deconversion as a gain, as a positive thing, and I am going to make sure that they know it from the start.

Similarly, I want this man to realize that as an atheist I have a happiness and peace of mind that I never had as a christian, and that therefore I find such blatant conversion attempts to be mildly insulting at best. I would really like to leave him thinking, "Gosh, maybe people are a little bit offended when, without even knowing them, I say that their life choices are wrong and that they need to brought around to my way of thinking."

Walking off in a huff or lecturing him on his lack of social graces could only be expected from her.

Ha, he'll get that in spades if he tries to tell me, for example, "You were never a True Christian." I'll ask him if it's normal for him to call his guests liars.

Queen of Swords

By the way, I've just been told that since the man's wife was the one who used the words "we can't leave her like that", I can't insult the man by saying, "I'm a bit offended that you think the decisions I have made regarding my life are wrong." My mother said, "You can't treat them like that, they're my relatives." (distant relatives, second cousin, apparently).

"I'm your relative too!" I said. :banghead:

lpetrich

Any opinion on bringing up Islam? Like saying that Pascal's Wager works equally well for Islam.

And judging from the descriptions of the Islamic Paradise, there is much in it that both sexes can enjoy. However, those parts are parts that modern technology has easily duplicated -- technology that did not exist in 7th cy. Arabia, it must be said.

No extremes of climate -- not too hot or too cold.
Lots and lots of water.
Gardens.
Non-intoxicating wine.
Milk that does not spoil.
Honey that does not crystallize.
Luscious fruits: dates, pomegranates, etc., all easy to pick.
Tasty bird meats.
Jeweled soft couches with green cushions to recline on as you eat and drink.
Green silk, rich brocade, and silver bracelets to wear.
Fine carpets to walk on.

Nice collection: The X-Rated Paradise of Islam.

Biff the unclean

Originally posted by steadele
Depends what you mean by "respect". There are many views that I dont respect in the regard that I do not think they are true or correct, but I still do not mock or ridicule them.
That would be the form of respect known these days as "tolerance." I've yet to meet the Xian who was happy to settle for that. Like Q of S I generally find (in the rare times that the subject even comes up) that to Xians "respect" means nothing less than agreeing with them. Disagreement is very often taken as a personal insult. Speculations on the reasons for this attitude might make an interesting thread.
That's funny, I remember as a kid back in Ireland the "good" Sisters would always tell us "Respect is a two way street". Yet it never occurred to them that they were one of the two ways. Somehow they always claimed 'right of way.'

Then again, this world isn't fair. Everything is not of equal value. There are some things, which should not be tolerated, which should be opposed. There are things in this world that deserve to be ridiculed.

Heathen Dawn

I think intolerant religions should not be tolerated. Christianity and Islam, at least of the fundamentalist kind, should be outlawed.

lpetrich

Also, if anyone claims that there are no atheists in foxholes, retort by asking who has ever made their last words

See you in Heaven

Jobar

Wow! Hey! QoS, if you have time before your talk, read THIS! As fine an argument for atheism, from first principles, as I have seen in a long time- and that's saying a lot. Deepest thanks to a new poster, House of Games, for the link- it's a gem!

Hopeful Monsters

Just to second Jobar - the Marshall J. Gauvin [1881-1978] extract first cited by House of Games in another thread is a revelation in clear thinking and bravery - he was saying this in 1922 ! Wadda guy.

Good luck with your de bait QofS - I think you should make your agenda this - don't try to 'win' or come out top dog (sure that's not your style anyways) just aim to plant many acorns of doubt - you know what happens to acorns!!

I'm off to amazon to look up Marshall J. Gauvin :notworthy