Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sandlewood · 03-12-2002, 03:02 PM

This thread seems to have gotten off-topic in places. But perhaps not totally as it may at least remind Harumi of the irrationality of Christian beliefs. Though you may feel lonely at times and uncomfortable with death (as I have), buying into a really warped mythology won't fix things.

Bait, I know you said you do not want a debate. But I don't think you can post so much proselytizing and not expect a response, especially when you included a lot more than was needed to correct any misconceptions about Christianity that occurred before your post. I don't think you offended anyone. It's just that on an atheist board, you are bound to get a response.

Quote:

Originally posted by daemon:
The irony is, of course, that us relatively non-religious folks are living longer, healthier lives today than ever before. So the consequences of "rebelling against God" is... health?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bait:
No, the consequences here on earth is lack of peace, lack of comfort, lack of direction. One can be healthy, but not happy.

Since you have about a hundred posts, I assume you been here long enough to know that this is an inaccurate picture of atheists. Atheists have no lack of peace or direction. We are not unhappy at all. We have perfectly meaningful lives. You may have been listening to propaganda spewed by your Pastor. It seems Christians like to tell each other that atheists are unhappy and full of hate. If you want to know about atheists, ask atheists.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bait:
Your using mans logic to try to explain spiritual things. My position is exactly what the Bible says, and most Christian churches teach. Anything that exists is not necessarily God�s will, we humans go against his will all of the time. That is why Jesus came to this earth, to put in place the things necessary to eliminate suffering that we brought on by listening to Lucifer. Yes, God is omnipotent, in that is he has unlimited authority and power. But he also is just and usually abides by his own laws, and always abides by his promises. One promise was to give us a free will, the ability to choose. We made a poor choice, and suffer because of it. His plan is to eliminate that suffering. But by and according to his plan, and his timing, not ours. Remember that he doesn�t necessarily look on time as we do.

Let me repost one of my favorite posts I found on <a href="http://www.freethoughtdebater.com." target="_blank">www.freethoughtdebater.com</a> because I don't think I can say it any better than this. All I know of the author is that his name was Wes.

Quote:

Of course I think Hitler was evil. That's my whole point. We judge Hitler evil by his deeds, yet God's deeds, including His torture chamber that never closes called hell, doesn't seem to make God any less good. Something on a considerably lesser scale made Hitler supremely evil and justifiably so. You say God's giving us a choice, but He also supposedly gave us the power of reason and thought to control our emotions and to help us make good choices. If so, He is apparently saying, "I love you and you have a choice, and I made it tricky with this gift called reasoning...nonetheless, make the right choice, or ELSE. If you get it wrong, I won't accept your apology, not now, not a year from now, not billions upon billions of years from now, after which you will still screaming in agony and I'll say...'too bad, a wrong answer is a wrong answer and I'm gonna torture you for another billion, billion years'...and all those people in heaven won't bothered by your agonized screams at all. They'll be enjoying their eternal bliss happy I didn't do it to them...oh, and by the way...I still love you."
And about Jesus dying for our sins. No disrespect intended, but I'm genuinely confounded by this doctrine, so let me tell you what I'm hearing. God said something like, "I'm so mad I'm going to torture in hell not just you but all your as yet unborn descendants unless I get a human sacrifice. These are my rules, and sure, I could *just forgive*, but I choose not to unless somebody is brutally slaughtered--but it can't be just anybody, it has to be my own Son, who is really me (?). So, instead of just forgiving the unborn future generations of mankind for something their ancestors did--which I could do since these are *my rules*--I will sacrifice my son to me, who is really me anyway, which means he doesn't really die, but it meets my requirement because it's bloody and painful. Yes, I could just forgive without that blood bath requirement, but I choose not too...because I'm so good and loving." I could choose only to punish the guilty, but I decided that future generations inherit guilt.
On both a rational and a moral level, calling this good is like saying "black is white." What is not completely unintelligible in all this is patently and universally evil. -Wes

You say that God gives us choice and doesn't want us to be robots. But then, if we don't choose like he wants�if he doesn't get his way�he doesn't just wipe us out of existence, he tortures us forever. Sounds like a very childish response to me. If you are going to create beings that have free choice, you should be able to accept the consequences of them not choosing the way you want. And even if we were not sent to hell and tortured but just wiped out of existence, then what would be the point of giving us free will. All he is doing is filtering out the people who don't choose as he wants. So what he ends up with in heaven is a race of people who think exactly the way he wants them to. So what's the difference? Whether he creates only people who think the way he wants, or whether he creates all kinds of people and gets rid of the ones that go bad, it�s the same thing.

I know you are thinking that I have the wrong idea about what Christainity is. But I'm not saying anything that isn't true. I'm just saying it in a different way, not the euphemistic way that the Church explains it.

Sometimes I wonder just how much wackier it has to get before people will start to catch on.

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]

Jayhawker Soule · 03-12-2002, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bait:
Folks, please, ...
I'm not putting you down if you do not believe either, that's your choice, and you have every right to it.

Actually, I believe him. In fact, I'll bet Ron is both a really nice guy and a really good citizen who is absolutely sincere in his assertion of tolerance -- a tolerance wholly foreign to the God of Abraham. IMO, it's a remarkably sad disconnect. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

echidna · 03-12-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draygomb:
Has anyone read the case studies of reincarnation? There is some really interesting evidence in favor of it. My favorite being the ultraviolet Birthmarks.

You're kidding, right ?

James AD · 03-12-2002, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:

But - so Christians believe - since God is a person God doesn't necessarily choose to answer those prayers. When God being perfect and good doesn't answer them the person who prayed continues to look to God for strength to endure whatever it is, etc. Part of believing in the God they believe in is recognizing that God may say 'no' to prayer requests and having to accept that.

And here are more:

Do not test the Lord.
God answers all prayers; Sometimes the answer is "no".
God gives me strength to get through difficult times.
God helps those who help themselves.
Give the Lord thanks for all your blessings.
God never gives you more than you can handle.
God will sometimes heal through a doctor.
He/She has gone to be with the Lord.
Everything happens for a reason.

Slowly it began to dawn on me; It is all just a pretend game. When good things happen, it's a blessing. When bad things happen, God is teaching us something. Christians get good at explaining God's intervention in the natural course of events that to all appearances are just the natural course of events. What good is a pretend god?

Do I wish for God's existence? A word evokes a thousand pictures. By what definition? I see God as a poetic image, that differs from person to person, and sect to sect. Some are very benevolent. Some would have the majority of the worlds population resurrected in another world only to suffer forever. At one end of the spectrum I would wish it true, at the other, I would not.

My greatest wish now, and always, is to know the plain truth. That is where I want to live and to dream from.

Zuri · 03-12-2002, 04:19 PM

Ok, I'm a little confused about something. Many of you seem to be basing your beliefs off of the fact that if God were real he must be hurtful and vengeful or else he would help everyone when they prayed. But tell me please, if he answered everyone's prayers perfectly wouldn't that make pain meaningless? Nothing would be serious because a simple word would make everything better and thus pain wouldn't be taken seriously and good fortune wouldn't have any respect. Everyone would have it.

Not Prince Hamlet · 03-12-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Ok, I'm a little confused about something. Many of you seem to be basing your beliefs off of the fact that if God were real he must be hurtful and vengeful or else he would help everyone when they prayed. But tell me please, if he answered everyone's prayers perfectly wouldn't that make pain meaningless? Nothing would be serious because a simple word would make everything better and thus pain wouldn't be taken seriously and good fortune wouldn't have any respect. Everyone would have it.

Alas, that answer is a bit trite. So what if everybody had good fortune? Let me hang my argument on God's omnipotence: surely, if God wanted to, He could make it so that everybody would have fortune and yet take it seriously and have respect for pain.

Or, taking it a step further: surely, if God wanted to, He could have it so that everybody was happy and never felt pain.

The standard theistic retort is, "God is doing this to teach you A or B, or to turn you into X or Y."

But, again assuming an omnipotent God, couldn't he just teach you A or B, or turn you into X or Y without the pain? If he can't, then he's not omnipotent, is he?

Therefore, one of the following must be true:

1. God can not make everybody happy, or

2. God will not make everybody happy.

Jeff

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Not Prince Hamlet ]

Philosoft · 03-12-2002, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zuri:
Ok, I'm a little confused about something. Many of you seem to be basing your beliefs off of the fact that if God were real he must be hurtful and vengeful or else he would help everyone when they prayed. But tell me please, if he answered everyone's prayers perfectly wouldn't that make pain meaningless? Nothing would be serious because a simple word would make everything better and thus pain wouldn't be taken seriously and good fortune wouldn't have any respect. Everyone would have it.

Why does pain have to be meaningful except in a universe where pain already exists? A universe without pain is logically possible and obviously God can do anything that is logically possible, so the argument that the attributes of this universe are necessary is untenable. If God is the source of the 'goodness' scale by which all things are measured, then it is an arbitrary distinction that this universe should be 'better' than a universe without pain. If God is not the source of the standard of good and evil, then Christianity has bigger problems.

Megatron · 03-12-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet:

Therefore, one of the following must be true:

1. God can not make everybody happy, or

2. God will not make everybody happy.

Then, of course you're left with this:

If 1, God is not omnipotent.
If 2, God is not benevolent.

Now enter the theist who will try to weasel himself out of the corner with a free will argument.

World's Youngest Atheist · 03-12-2002, 08:15 PM

I remember being about 8 or 9, back in my Xian Dark Ages, and, through a family discussion in the car, pondered: what if there is no heaven? No enternal life? If after we die, it's all over? (This moment marks the first stirrings of my atheism)
My younger sister was freaking out at the thought. I found it quite disturbing too.

Now, I don't find it that bad for some reason. Maybe it's because modern medicine is going to keep my generation alive for a lot longer than all previous generations. I don't know...

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: World's Youngest Atheist ]

HelenM · 03-13-2002, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zuri:
Ok, I'm a little confused about something. Many of you seem to be basing your beliefs off of the fact that if God were real he must be hurtful and vengeful or else he would help everyone when they prayed. But tell me please, if he answered everyone's prayers perfectly wouldn't that make pain meaningless? Nothing would be serious because a simple word would make everything better and thus pain wouldn't be taken seriously and good fortune wouldn't have any respect. Everyone would have it.

If you're right then doesn't that mean that after a while, heaven will be 'meaningless'?

Reminds me of Monty Python "Show me the person who's worse off than me - I could do with a good laugh!!!"

This is how I feel: it's not that 'Christian answers have no validity or relevance'; it's rather that when Christians claim they have all the answers they trivialize the questions, showing a lack of respect, implicitly, for the questioners

(So, all the questioners are what? IQ-challenged, or ignorant or too wicked to accept the answers?)

love
Helen

03-12-2002, 08:15 PM	#59
World's Youngest Atheist Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 79	I remember being about 8 or 9, back in my Xian Dark Ages, and, through a family discussion in the car, pondered: what if there is no heaven? No enternal life? If after we die, it's all over? (This moment marks the first stirrings of my atheism) My younger sister was freaking out at the thought. I found it quite disturbing too. Now, I don't find it that bad for some reason. Maybe it's because modern medicine is going to keep my generation alive for a lot longer than all previous generations. I don't know... [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: World's Youngest Atheist ]</p>

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03-12-2002, 04:19 PM	#55
Zuri New Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: US Posts: 4	Ok, I'm a little confused about something. Many of you seem to be basing your beliefs off of the fact that if God were real he must be hurtful and vengeful or else he would help everyone when they prayed. But tell me please, if he answered everyone's prayers perfectly wouldn't that make pain meaningless? Nothing would be serious because a simple word would make everything better and thus pain wouldn't be taken seriously and good fortune wouldn't have any respect. Everyone would have it.

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