Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Old Man · 03-06-2003, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
With all due respect, I don't see why a non-Christian would want to confine themselves to objecting to what you in particular consider to be 'Christianity proper'.

Do you?

I would think they would object to whatever anyone who calls themselves a Christian, claims 'Christianity' to be, to the extent they have objections to it.
Helen

Sure. I object to the vast majority of Christians calling themselves Christians too. Many homosexuals these days call themselves Christians. But so what. It proves nothing. Anyone can perform a "religious" ceremony.

There is only one Christianity that atheists need to bother to criticize and that is the one found in the bible. Otherwise, we can agree that non-biblical Christians all deserve to be criticized.

Writer@Large · 03-06-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
There is only one Christianity that atheists need to bother to criticize and that is the one found in the bible.

And therein lies the problem, Old Man. Everyone calling themselves a Christian claims that their version comes from the Bible, and they can all cite chapter and verse to support their faith.

Which variety of Christian are you, Old Man? I'm curious, and if you don't mind, I'd like to use it as a means to explore this a little further. You've just made a claim about your variant of Christianity; I'm honestly wondering how yours is better than the others.

--W@L

03-06-2003, 08:46 AM

With respect to the OP, there are a number of reasons for the success of the strict fundie religions.

I would suggest that one is censorship. Keep your flock in the highest possible state of ignorance by not exposing them to competing ideas. (I was reading that in one town in India, the local imam has decided that TV is sinful and has obliged all muslims to give up their tellies, videos, etc., which are being sold to local hindus to raise funds for the mosque.

) Don't let your children learn about evilution, and so on.

Another reason is penalties against apostasy. This can be simply social ostracism or, for muslims, death.

03-06-2003, 08:50 AM

Old Man: I assume from your post that you don't think catholics are True Christians (TM), since their church places church tradition before the bible.

This raises the interesting question of whether the bible as you probably know it would exist at all if it hadn't been kept alive and shaped by the catholic church. If you discount the authority of the catholic church, how do you know what truly constitutes the bible?

Marduk · 03-06-2003, 09:09 AM

�Why is it that the two most evil religions in history, the most hate filled, most violent, and irrational be gaining adherents over religions based on love, kindness, and compassion�

Because hate is more fun, it worked for Hitler, the Klan, the Crusaders and many others throughout history.
Blood boiling, self righteous �Lets go git �em� old fashioned us vs. them hate, it is the sex of the Religious right. And the more intense the more important it makes you feel.

but keep in mind there are some fundy type Christians that do practice the 'love one another' stuff. Look at all those Baptists who helped slaves escape and more recently drove all the way to NY to help clean up after 9/11.

Bree · 03-06-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thor Q. Mada
passion9,

What an incredible load of B. You know on which forum you are?
Just quoting that silly book will get you nothing but sneers and laughs. Which century are you from by the way??
I you issit being an imaginary person, that is your right, but do it somewhere else.

passion9 has the right to give his/her opinion on the OP and receive criticism on that opinion. Deliberate flaming isn't really moving this discussion forward, IMHO.

Biff the unclean · 03-06-2003, 09:50 AM

I think that Old Man just showed us one of the reasons religious fundamentalism is growing more popular. It allows you to be able to behave in a disgraceful manner while claiming you have grace.
He got to claim that he was better than Homosexuals, Roman Catholics, and "the vast majority of Christians" while at the same time be humble.
This modern world of ours frowns on prejudice and bigotry of all kinds. But this is a rather recent turn of events, a triumph of humanism. There are still many who don't wish to leave the dark ages. Many who still want to nurture their hatreds like some Golem in a deep dark cave. What better way to spread hatred and prejudice than with a "God of love?"

spacedOut · 03-06-2003, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by passion9
Now that we have sin keeping us from God, something must be done to eleminate it so that we can be atoned with God (or to God). In the OT, only the choice animals that were owned were supposed to be given as a sacrifice (and many time it was not, which is seen throughout the OT) because they were "perfect" and their blood atoned for our sins. Blood was required because the punishment for sin (or back in the OT, breaking the Law) was death so a sacrifice was required.

From reading scripture, I don't gather that sin atonement was the ONLY reason for blood sacrifice. For example, after the flood Noah built an alter for a sacrifice to God and "The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma..." (Gen. 8:21) To me, this sounds more like God receiving a "physical" pleasure (such as smelling flowers) than an atonement for sin (after all, wasn't Noah the one GOOD guy? Why did he need to perform a sacrifice?)

Also, the next statement in the same verse is a bit baffling. [The Lord] said in his heart "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood."

Well, if God created us, and we're evil from childhood (i.e. before we can exercise "free will") whose fault is that???

passion9 · 03-06-2003, 12:22 PM

This is going to be my last post on this subject, unless something happens where i feel I need to post again. I agree with everything Old Man has said thus far, basing you're arguments against Christianity on people these days, or even faction groups in the Bible, are useless. Jesus Christ is the only basis of what Christianity should look like (I've heard it said once that He did it so well they named it after Him

) and as far as churches go, the orignal church in Acts is the only one I put full confidence in.

Quote:

From reading scripture, I don't gather that sin atonement was the ONLY reason for blood sacrifice. For example, after the flood Noah built an alter for a sacrifice to God and "The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma..." (Gen. 8:21) To me, this sounds more like God receiving a "physical" pleasure (such as smelling flowers) than an atonement for sin (after all, wasn't Noah the one GOOD guy? Why did he need to perform a sacrifice?)

Also, the next statement in the same verse is a bit baffling. [The Lord] said in his heart "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood."

Well, if God created us, and we're evil from childhood (i.e. before we can exercise "free will") whose fault is that???

Ok, as for the pleasing aroma, it also says in Revelations that the prayers of His people are held in bowls before Him and the smell of it is a pleasing offering (of course paraphrased). I take that as more of a figurative than literal meaning, because the blood sacrifice brings us into atonement with God again, it is pleasing to Him, as would be a pleasant aroma (if that makes sense), no one killed sheep so that God would think they smelled good. Even Noah had to atone for his sins because of the Fall. After the Fall, mankind was cursed and sin was born... God didn't "create" sin (sin is merely an archery term meaning missing the mark, which is EXACTLY what sin is in these terms, missing the mark by not being in that divine romance with God). It is neither God nor Noah's fault, but a curse put on all mankind as a result of the Fall, one that God created the old and new covenants to attempt to give us a way back to Him.

Now as far as eveyone having their own version of Christianity, that's a horrible load of garbage. There is only one way, Jesus Christ. Accepting Him to be our blood sacrifice, and recieving the Holy Spirit to enable God to work in and through our lives. It is my opinion, and what I have learned through my own prodigal times (which is a whole different topic) that a person who has recieved the Holy Spirit can never lose it, He is always there no matter where you are or what is going on, prompting you to be more Christlike. Now when all these other things such as homosexuals and whatever else "bad person" saying they are a Christian, I don't immediately discard that, because you never know whether they are newborn in the faith or not, God could be saving them from that situation... but for older people in the faith (not agewise, spiritually wise) you must look at the fruit they bare, many people claim they are saved, but until the Holy Spirit is demonstrated in your life I don't think that's true.

Edit: No one can boast about being redeemed, it is by faith and is a gift of God. No one deserves it, yet all are welcome. And since it is a gift we can boast only in the Cross. Also, having the sinfulness of sin revealed to you is a humbling experience. Take, for example, Paul. If you watch his self-perception over the course of His ministry, you see him seeing himself as worse and worse, up until he proclaims he is the worst of all sinners. That is the attitude Christians are SUPPOSED to have, but since we are still human afterall sometimes we don't. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger"

Grace and Peace

Also, thank you to the people who have furthered this discussion and not got on here flaming people because of silly reasons. I have lived peacefully with people from many different backgrounds and holding many different beliefs so I know that it can happen. If any of you want to private message me, or email me I would love it... perhaps I will respond to this one again. Fender, Old Man, and all the others... happy debating

Writer@Large · 03-06-2003, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by passion9
This is going to be my last post on this subject, unless something happens where i feel I need to post again. I agree with everything Old Man has said thus far, basing you're arguments against Christianity on people these days, or even faction groups in the Bible, are useless.

I hope you take time to respond to my query, then, because you bring up the same comment and question that Old Man has, namely: Everyone calling themselves a Christian claims that their version comes from the Bible, and they can all cite chapter and verse to support their faith.

Which variety of Christian are you, passion9?

Quote:

Now as far as eveyone having their own version of Christianity, that's a horrible load of garbage. There is only one way, Jesus Christ.

Okay. Which of these denominations are Christians, and which are going to hell?

1) Catholics

2) Latter-Day Saints (the Mormons)

3) Evangelical Lutherans

4) Missouri Synod Lutherans

5) Pentacostals

6) Baptists

7) Unitarians

8) Seventh Day Adventists

9) Eastern Orthodox

9) Anglicans (Church of England)

10) Jehovah's Witnesses

Please also, if you can, explain *why* each is/is not a Christian faith.

--W@L

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03-06-2003, 08:46 AM	#23
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	With respect to the OP, there are a number of reasons for the success of the strict fundie religions. I would suggest that one is censorship. Keep your flock in the highest possible state of ignorance by not exposing them to competing ideas. (I was reading that in one town in India, the local imam has decided that TV is sinful and has obliged all muslims to give up their tellies, videos, etc., which are being sold to local hindus to raise funds for the mosque. ) Don't let your children learn about evilution, and so on. Another reason is penalties against apostasy. This can be simply social ostracism or, for muslims, death.

03-06-2003, 08:50 AM	#24
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Old Man: I assume from your post that you don't think catholics are True Christians (TM), since their church places church tradition before the bible. This raises the interesting question of whether the bible as you probably know it would exist at all if it hadn't been kept alive and shaped by the catholic church. If you discount the authority of the catholic church, how do you know what truly constitutes the bible?

03-06-2003, 09:09 AM	#25
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	�Why is it that the two most evil religions in history, the most hate filled, most violent, and irrational be gaining adherents over religions based on love, kindness, and compassion� Because hate is more fun, it worked for Hitler, the Klan, the Crusaders and many others throughout history. Blood boiling, self righteous �Lets go git �em� old fashioned us vs. them hate, it is the sex of the Religious right. And the more intense the more important it makes you feel. but keep in mind there are some fundy type Christians that do practice the 'love one another' stuff. Look at all those Baptists who helped slaves escape and more recently drove all the way to NY to help clean up after 9/11.

03-06-2003, 09:50 AM	#27
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I think that Old Man just showed us one of the reasons religious fundamentalism is growing more popular. It allows you to be able to behave in a disgraceful manner while claiming you have grace. He got to claim that he was better than Homosexuals, Roman Catholics, and "the vast majority of Christians" while at the same time be humble. This modern world of ours frowns on prejudice and bigotry of all kinds. But this is a rather recent turn of events, a triumph of humanism. There are still many who don't wish to leave the dark ages. Many who still want to nurture their hatreds like some Golem in a deep dark cave. What better way to spread hatred and prejudice than with a "God of love?"

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