Arrowman

On the subject of the OP: I think there are two main reasons for the difference between the US and the UK (and Australia is more like the UK in this regard, too):

1. The Anglican church, which is the official state church of the UK and the de facto state church of Australia, is much more liberal than the fundamentalist religions of the US. In particular, I think that broadly speaking Anglicans would be pro-CSS, in fact.

The reason for the Anglican church (and other liberal denominations) not having the same pre-eminent position in the US lies in the settlement and de-colonisation history of that latter country.

Also, the UK has fought (and "won") its CSS battles several times over the centuries in different forms - eg the Anglican/Catholic split. These were not primarily CSS battles, but their effect, after hundreds of years of being bedded down in to the culture, has essentially been the same. One could almost argue that in those terms the US is now where the UK was 500 or more years ago.

2. This was put to me by someone the other day: US society is based strongly on the rights of the individual, whereas UK (and Australian) society is based more on the "common good". That is perhaps a broad generalisation, but I think it has some validity. And it's not to say that one point of view is "better" than the other; just that there is a different emphasis which has different outcomes. In terms of CSS, it may mean that in the UK and Australia we tend to just "blur over" sectarian issues whereas in the US they are highlighted. Dunno - it seems like an interesting insight into this issue.

One other thought, in re Australia vs US. We both have deeply conservative, church going leaders. Bush is a (what? Baptist? whatever) and Howard is an Anglican. But watch their different public expressions in the wake, for example, of terrorist activity. While Howard occasionally lets slip with a word like "prayer" or "God", he is generally at pains to avoid religion-specific language. I saw him speaking the other day, and he went to so much effort to mention "...and people who do not profess any religion" that it was almost comical.

Fiach

Your view is correct, I live in Inverness-shire. There are clear-cut differences in the USA-UK.

1. Religiosity: US has a constitution "guaranteeing" separation of church and state, founded by non-Christian Deist rationalists. But don't forget the colonies were originally founded by Puritans (irrational fundamentalists who came to America not to find religious freedom but to escape from religious freedom in Britain.)

2. Violence: US had 17,240 gun deaths in a year versus about 100 in the UK. Even with population differences that is spectacular. Canada has about the same number of guns per family as the US but its 30 million people had only about 36 gun deaths versus 17,240 for 250 million Americans. Why?

I have heard different hypotheses:

A. America is a frontier country and the dangers of dealing with dangerous heathen Indians make Americans suspicious, quick on the draw with a gun and God-fearing. Georgia was founded as a penal colony and the Carolinas for Jacobite War prisoners. US comedian Gallagher said referring to himself and fellow Americans, "we are descended from people kicked out of every self-respecting country on Earth." Did America clean up our gene pool and suffer the consequences? I don't buy this shite.

B. America was founded by people kicked out of every civilised nation in Europe. These consisted of people in radical religious cults (anabaptists, Calvinists to barmy to live in Scotland, Huguenots to extreme for France, Germans too intolerant for Germany, English fundamentalists too intolerant of English tolerance.)

C. America was also colonised by people after failed revolutions (three Jacobite Risings, the Thirty Years War, Catholic-Protestant war of France, the Civil War of the Coventers in Scotland, Cromwell's attempted genocide of Ireland, the Russian orthodox persecution of Catholic Poles) all of this sent the more devout (i.e. fanatical) religious grous to America.

D. There does seem to be an association of religion and violence in America. Atheists are 11% of the population but 0.05% of the violent prison population. The major mass killers recently have all killed for God (Tim McVeigh, Ben Smith, Eric Rudolph, Army of God, the KKK.) By contrast, there are very few murders per year in Scotland where about half the population are atheists or non-theists. Similar figures occur in the Scandinavian countries, Netherlands, Belgium, France, New Zealand, and the UK minus N.I.

I'll just toss these in for discussion, condemnation, whatever.

Fiach

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Fiach ]</p>

Buffman

Fiach

Your list of possibilities (contributing factors) left one out. One that is seldom found in any American history book...probably to protect the guilty.

America was the dumping ground for tens-of-thousands of British convicts and whores/ prostitutes before the Revolutionary War. Many of those convicts were political agitators as well as religious zealots.

Obviously Americans are "Historically" challenged. For lack of a better descriptive phrase, I call us "Nescient Amnesiacs." Since the election of the current administration, I now call us "Dangerously Nescient Amnesiacs."

<a href="http://dinsdoc.com/butler-1.htm" target="_blank">http://dinsdoc.com/butler-1.htm</a>

Toto

I don't think Timothy McVeigh killed for God. He was rather reticent about his religious views and his motives. It was claimed that he was an atheist, but he said at one point that he believed in some sort of deity.

Most of the violence in the US is not religiously motivated, except for an indirect link. Violence is linked closely to our drug laws (our prohibition of drugs), and the drug laws are backed by the religious right, which also backs free access to guns so the drug dealers can shoot at each other.