Freethought & Rationalism Archive

babelfish · 05-31-2002, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
Some creationists have been known to exaggerate their credentials, bragging about the "degrees" they had gotten from such notable diploma mills as "Patriot University". See <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear" target="_blank">No Answers in Genesis</a> for details of the thesis that Kent Hovind had submitted to Patriot U.

<snip>

Great site, ipetrich! Lots of good readin' on there!

pseudobug · 05-31-2002, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:

Bert Thompson, Ph.D. Microbiology
David Menton, Ph.D. Cell Biology
Carl B. Fliermans, Ph.D. Microbiology
Ian G. Macreadie, Ph.D. Molecular Biology

These field are not really related to the study of evolution.

~~RvFvS~~[/QB]

Rufus, I've just gotta play devil's advocate here for a bit. While it is true that these fields are not directly related to evolution; people in these fields most certainly do address questions directly related to evolution.

Evolution is a pretty broad field itself and pursuing questions related to it cross multiple disciplinary boundaries.

I do agree that these yo-yo's listed above have likely had their brains scramble by the Jeebus conspiracy and are outnumbered by adherents to evolutionary theory by 10,000:1 or more in their respective fields.

[edited to remove multiple grammatical f--k-ups.]

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: pseudobug ]

hezekiah jones · 05-31-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baidarka:
Gary Parker, Ed.D. Biology ...

I've seen this guy on TV a few times. He's an affable sort of YEC knucklehead. He's been on this program called Origins, one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. They sit on this hilarious low-rent set with fake bookshelves and a table that has a few rocks, a child's microscope, and a couple of plastic dinosaurs on it. Just like a real lab. Then Parker (or Ken Ham, or whomever) gets up and scribbles a bunch of shit on the blackboard, while the host sits by ooh-ing and aah-ing.

Here is Origins' "homepage." Check this guy out:

<a href="http://www.ctvn.org/origins/" target="_blank">Origins</a>

Quote:

Gain vital knowledge and insights as host Russ Bixler interviews international scientists, refuting the myths of evolution and exploring exciting creation research.

Well, not exactly.

Also, Gary Parker has an <a href="http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-114.htm" target="_blank">article</a> at ICR (from 1982) co-authored with "Clete Knaub."

I don't know what "Clete Knaub" is, but I sure hope he sees a doctor about it.

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: hezekiahjones ]

lpetrich · 05-31-2002, 11:41 PM

I've done what I ought to have done earlier and looked for all these names in the PubMed archive at NIH. It took me some experimenting to discover that the best way to search it was "[last name] [first, middle initials]", for example "Gish D".

*** The most recent of the 7 papers coauthored by "Gish DT" was

Wechter WJ, Gish DT, Greig ME, Gray GD, Moxley TE, Kuentzel SL, Gray LG, Gibbons AJ, Griffin RL, Neil GL.
Nucleic acids. 16. Orally active derivatives of ara-cytidine.
J Med Chem. 1976 Aug;19(8):1013-7.
PMID: 966247

I'm not counting a relatively recent one in Science in which he most likely appeared in his capacity as an advocate of young-earth creationism.

*** The most recent of the 5 papers coauthored by "Cumming K" was

Stewart K, Cumming K, Wagg A.
Cardiopulmonary resuscitation in the elderly.
J Med Ethics. 1996 Jun;22(3):181-2. No abstract available.
PMID: 8798943

The others were

Resuscitation decisions--when should we talk to patients?
The reliability of height measurement (the Wessex Growth Study)
Myocardial infarction in the elderly

Thermal tolerance of the bivalve molluscs Modiolus modiolus L., Mytilus edulis L. and Brachidontes demissus Dillwyn. (1967), with "Cumming KB" listed as a coauthor.

*** There were an enormous number of papers coauthored by "Parker G", most likely because "Parker" is a common last name.

*** The same was true of "Thompson B", most likely for the same reason.

*** The most recent of the 24 papers coauthored by "Menton DN" and "Menton D" is

Brown M, Gogia PP, Sinacore DR, Menton DN.
High-voltage galvanic stimulation on wound healing in guinea pigs: longer-term effects.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1995 Dec;76(12):1134-7.
PMID: 8540790

with most of the others being about various similar items of physiological research, many of them at the cellular level.

*** The most recent of the 25 papers coauthored by "Fliermans CB" is

Santo Domingo JW, Berry CJ, Summer M, Fliermans CB.
Microbiology of spent nuclear fuel storage basins.
Curr Microbiol. 1998 Dec;37(6):387-94.
PMID: 9806976

Most of the other papers were like this one, on various bacterial-ecology and related subjects.

*** The most recent of the 49 papers coauthored by "Macreadie I" and "Macreadie IG" is

Sibley C H, Macreadie I.
Novel approaches to tackling malarial drug resistance using yeast.
IUBMB Life. 2001 Dec;52(6):285-9.
PMID: 11895077

The others were mostly various papers on how various microbes resist antibiotics and related subjects.

*** Conclusion

Only one of these gentlemen ever got close to researching some evolution-related subject, and that was Ian Macreadie, who must surely have run into lots of discussions of antibiotic-resistance evolution among microbes.

So is this gentleman a microbiological <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/snelling.htm" target="_blank">Andrew Snelling</a>?

He is a geologist with a split personality.
One personality is a mainstream professional geologist who willingly describes some rocks as being a billion years old or more.
The other personality is a young-earth flood-geologist creationist who believes that the Universe is not much more than 6000 years old.
If that isn't weird, then what is?

Finally, here is <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm" target="_blank">that article on Kent Hovind's "thesis"</a>.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]

RufusAtticus · 06-01-2002, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pseudobug:


Rufus, I've just gotta play devil's advocate here for a bit. While it is true that these fields are not directly related to evolution; people in these fields most certainly do address questions directly related to evolution.

Evolution is a pretty broad field itself and pursuing questions related to it cross multiple disciplinary boundaries.

Now, I do agree that these yo-yo's listed above have likely had their brains scramble by the Jeebus conspiracy and are out number by adherents to evolutionary theory by 10,000:1 or more in their respective fields.

That's why I said "not really realated." Although, I guess I didn't make it clear enough.

~~RvFvS~~

Coragyps · 06-01-2002, 08:02 AM

Quote:

I'm not counting a relatively recent one in Science in which he most likely appeared in his capacity as an advocate of young-earth creationism.

LP: a quick look through the indices of Science back to 1880 showed three articles by Gishes - two in the 1930's by O H Gish, and one in 1988 by Gerald. The only Gish I found in a footnote was C D Gish, who apparently worked on DDT in birds.
Of course, I've never published in Science either, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

lpetrich · 06-01-2002, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coragyps:

LP: a quick look through the indices of Science back to 1880 showed three articles by Gishes - ...

Here's the PubMed reference:

Science 2000 Aug 11;289(5481):869-71

Educators have hard choices; nationally, not just in Kansas.
White S, Meier W, Lovell F, McCoy A, Robinove CJ, Creelan TF, Brun R, Gordon I, MacWest R, Collier IE, Gish DT, Hartmann WK, Behe MJ.
Publication Types:
* Letter

PMID: 10960317

Meaning that Duane Gish had only written a letter or something.

Coragyps · 06-01-2002, 10:14 AM

Oops! The archive I searched was pre-1995. The Gish comment, in its entirety, is:

Quote:

Duane T. Gish, executive
As Richard Lewontin has rightly stated, evolution and creationism are irreconcilable world views. When each is stripped down to the bare bones, each is intrinsically religious. Although they constitute inferences based on circumstantial evidence, the evidence supporting each is by nature scientific and should be made available to students in the tax-supported public schools of our pluralistic democratic society.

This was gleaned from among a large volume of feedback to an editorial by Eugenie Scott. Sounds about par, doesn't it?

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]

Adrian Selby · 06-01-2002, 10:28 AM

I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to post here the names of scientists who work in the fields mentioned but more closely with evolution, and their degrees and academic records.

You might now be thinking, good god Adrian! that would take pages.

Interesting though how a few scientists are wheeled out for some kind of shock effect, when its a tactic doomed to failure when all the other scientists who think differently with all their degrees are trotted out.

At the least, it makes the YEC try a different tack, after all, anyone can trot out academics only for the other side to dismiss them for being biased either way, but at least a list displaying quantity and quality would allow some of us less well versed personally to say:

"Ah, interesting you should quote those scientists and their qualifications, here's a list of scientists with anti YEC views and their qualifications and credentials.....your point?"

Adrian

Lizard · 06-01-2002, 06:57 PM

Getting advanced scientific degrees is a strategy by which creationists hope to sell creationism from a position of scientific authority.

Jonathan Wells, author of "Icons of Evolution," has a Ph.D. in Developmental Biology from UC Berkeley, but he only got it so he could devote his life to "destroying Darwinism." (See his article at <a href="http://www.tparents.org," target="_blank">www.tparents.org,</a> "Why I Went For a Second Ph.D.")

There's also a pretty well-known YEC paleontologist who had the privilege of studying under Stephen J. Gould, but apparently was able to listen without absorbing anything. I can't remember his name. I wanted to say Carl Wieland, but I don't think that's right. Anybody remember?

05-31-2002, 11:41 PM	#14
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I've done what I ought to have done earlier and looked for all these names in the PubMed archive at NIH. It took me some experimenting to discover that the best way to search it was "[last name] [first, middle initials]", for example "Gish D". *** The most recent of the 7 papers coauthored by "Gish DT" was Wechter WJ, Gish DT, Greig ME, Gray GD, Moxley TE, Kuentzel SL, Gray LG, Gibbons AJ, Griffin RL, Neil GL. Nucleic acids. 16. Orally active derivatives of ara-cytidine. J Med Chem. 1976 Aug;19(8):1013-7. PMID: 966247 I'm not counting a relatively recent one in Science in which he most likely appeared in his capacity as an advocate of young-earth creationism. * The most recent of the 5 papers coauthored by "Cumming K" was Stewart K, Cumming K, Wagg A. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation in the elderly. J Med Ethics. 1996 Jun;22(3):181-2. No abstract available. PMID: 8798943 The others were Resuscitation decisions--when should we talk to patients? The reliability of height measurement (the Wessex Growth Study) Myocardial infarction in the elderly Thermal tolerance of the bivalve molluscs Modiolus modiolus L., Mytilus edulis L. and Brachidontes demissus Dillwyn. (1967), with "Cumming KB" listed as a coauthor. * There were an enormous number of papers coauthored by "Parker G", most likely because "Parker" is a common last name. * The same was true of "Thompson B", most likely for the same reason. * The most recent of the 24 papers coauthored by "Menton DN" and "Menton D" is Brown M, Gogia PP, Sinacore DR, Menton DN. High-voltage galvanic stimulation on wound healing in guinea pigs: longer-term effects. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1995 Dec;76(12):1134-7. PMID: 8540790 with most of the others being about various similar items of physiological research, many of them at the cellular level. * The most recent of the 25 papers coauthored by "Fliermans CB" is Santo Domingo JW, Berry CJ, Summer M, Fliermans CB. Microbiology of spent nuclear fuel storage basins. Curr Microbiol. 1998 Dec;37(6):387-94. PMID: 9806976 Most of the other papers were like this one, on various bacterial-ecology and related subjects. * The most recent of the 49 papers coauthored by "Macreadie I" and "Macreadie IG" is Sibley C H, Macreadie I. Novel approaches to tackling malarial drug resistance using yeast. IUBMB Life. 2001 Dec;52(6):285-9. PMID: 11895077 The others were mostly various papers on how various microbes resist antibiotics and related subjects. *** Conclusion Only one of these gentlemen ever got close to researching some evolution-related subject, and that was Ian Macreadie, who must surely have run into lots of discussions of antibiotic-resistance evolution among microbes. So is this gentleman a microbiological <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/snelling.htm" target="_blank">Andrew Snelling</a>? He is a geologist with a split personality. One personality is a mainstream professional geologist who willingly describes some rocks as being a billion years old or more. The other personality is a young-earth flood-geologist creationist who believes that the Universe is not much more than 6000 years old. If that isn't weird, then what is? Finally, here is <a href="http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm" target="_blank">that article on Kent Hovind's "thesis"</a>. [ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

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06-01-2002, 10:28 AM	#19
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to post here the names of scientists who work in the fields mentioned but more closely with evolution, and their degrees and academic records. You might now be thinking, good god Adrian! that would take pages. Interesting though how a few scientists are wheeled out for some kind of shock effect, when its a tactic doomed to failure when all the other scientists who think differently with all their degrees are trotted out. At the least, it makes the YEC try a different tack, after all, anyone can trot out academics only for the other side to dismiss them for being biased either way, but at least a list displaying quantity and quality would allow some of us less well versed personally to say: "Ah, interesting you should quote those scientists and their qualifications, here's a list of scientists with anti YEC views and their qualifications and credentials.....your point?" Adrian

06-01-2002, 06:57 PM	#20
Lizard Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Kansas Posts: 169	Getting advanced scientific degrees is a strategy by which creationists hope to sell creationism from a position of scientific authority. Jonathan Wells, author of "Icons of Evolution," has a Ph.D. in Developmental Biology from UC Berkeley, but he only got it so he could devote his life to "destroying Darwinism." (See his article at <a href="http://www.tparents.org," target="_blank">www.tparents.org,</a> "Why I Went For a Second Ph.D.") There's also a pretty well-known YEC paleontologist who had the privilege of studying under Stephen J. Gould, but apparently was able to listen without absorbing anything. I can't remember his name. I wanted to say Carl Wieland, but I don't think that's right. Anybody remember?

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