Shadowy Man

Hrm?? What's your definition of faith??

malookiemaloo

I think that there two definitions.

One would be conviction that what you believe is right, even if you do not possess complete head knowledge-and let's face it who does on any topic?

Secondly there is what I would term day to day trust ie a child trusts his parents, or a Christian trusts God to run their life. This is sometimes referred to as blind faith-which is exactly what it is.

However, it is in the first sense that I use the term faith for a discussion on the will.


m

mongrel

That would be because the writers of the bible didn't want people to think for themselves, IMHO.

I would have to say yes.

Why is that, if faith is far ahead of knowledge(you have to have knowledge of facts, for them to be any use)?

Excuse my ignorance, but what's SW? And could you give an example of a fact(not an unsubstantiated biblical claim) which non-theists say isn't true?

All evidence- that I've seen, anyway- seems to point to the bible not being correct in most of the things it says. This leads me to believe that none of it can be taken seriously. If I see strong credible evidence in support of the bible, I'll change my view of it. It's not an act of will, rather an honest opinion based on evidence.

Possibly, but it doesn't seem like it to me. When xians claim the bible is "The Truth", and shut themselves off to questioning or criticism on the subject(obviously not all xians do this, but the majority seem to), isn't that willing one's self to believe in it?

I think that's the difference.

malookiemaloo

Sorry if I have not edited this too well.


m

Undercurrent

When I went to church, parents would bring their children when they were younger than a year old, and can't even understand the language of the service. Clearly those children, at that age, were not there to partake of any rational argument for the correctness of the claims of christianity. If not to be brought into the habit of going, why were they there?

Interestingly, the teenage years are the years when the early-life brainwashing gets put most thoroughly to the test. In my teenage years (the 90s), there were a good number who left their parent religions for a more secular life, but also a good number who remained absolutely intransigent in their faiths, and active in their churches.

They would have probably stopped by the time you hit 30 anyways. With God, the promise of future presents never ends. If you applied the same logic applied here to God, you would keep believing whether or not it's true.

m.

braces_for_impact

I think this is an interesting topic. Perhaps some simply have higher standards as to what constitutes strong evidence?

I think will is responsible in part, but it is not exclusive. For instance, some people I have seen (both theist and atheist) have had an argument systematically dismantled on this board, only to regurgitate the same argument at a later date.

On the other hand, I cannot, by force of will make myself believe in Santa Claus, leperachauns, or any deity. Can anyone else? Can you via force of will, make yourself have faith in something? I for one cannot, so it would be dishonest for me to fake it. If a god were found to be in existence, and he were of the christian variety, how could he blame me for not believing when I simply lack the ability? If he is onmiscient, he would know I was only play acting at being a theist. Better to be sincere in your lack of belief than dishonest within it. Any god which was omnibenevolent could not fault me for that.

Infidelettante

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
To what extent is a person's belief stance (or lack of it) conditioned by their will?

Using Clarices definition our beliefs are not conditioned by the will but are determined by the will.

A Christian will say that they believe the facts. A non-theist says the facts are not true.

An act of will accepts the facts [if indeed they are facts] and an act of will rejects the same [supposed] facts.

Does a person's will operate in accordance with their perception of facts, knowledge, understanding, evidence etc or does the will operate independently

I would think that an independent act of will would be madness.

JT

malookiemaloo

Just to pick up on your last point.

I think I agree but the will is a separate entity and must be exercised if someone is to believe or not to believe something. In other words it is not evidence which convinces someone of truth or otherwise. The will has to come into play before belief or non-belief becomes a reality.


m

HelenM

This doesn't entirely make sense to me...because when you hear something you tend to believe it or not. It's not a conscious thing, whether you believe it or not. So how can it be an act of the will?

Doesn't the will come in only when you have something you decide to act upon which you are not sure about?

For example, you might decide to invest in something which isn't 100% guaranteed to go up in value. That's a decision of the will. Or you decide not to.

Maybe it's true that we often decide to act when we aren't sure of the outcome i.e. we don't have 100% belief in a good outcome. Nevertheless, does the will really come into play before we commit to something, or before we act on something? I'm not sure it does.

What do you think?

Helen

malookiemaloo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HelenM
[B]This doesn't entirely make sense to me...because when you hear something you tend to believe it or not. It's not a conscious thing, whether you believe it or not. So how can it be an act of the will?

Doesn't the will come in only when you have something you decide to act upon which you are not sure about?

For example, you might decide to invest in something which isn't 100% guaranteed to go up in value. That's a decision of the will. Or you decide not to.

Maybe it's true that we often decide to act when we aren't sure of the outcome i.e. we don't have 100% belief in a good outcome. Nevertheless, does the will really come into play before we commit to something, or before we act on something? I'm not sure it does.

What do you think?

Good points! Well made!

Perhaps our wills kick in passively at times. eg if someone comes into the room dripping wet and says it's raining outside, it does not take a monumental act of the will to agree.

However with matters which require more thought then the will kicks in positively.

I am sure you realise the point I am really trying to consider. It is this. For me to believe God exists is an act of the will. Now, is the will involved in a non-theist saying there is no God?


m