Susheel

Roshan I would have to disagree with you on what constitutes Indian. The vedantic brahmanical philosophy you speak of was for an elite group and a large portion of the populace was denied access to it. Contrary to what you may think the evidence for a non/pre Aryan civilization is pretty strong.
What of non-vedic religious practices. I would suggest a trip through the tribal outbacks of India. It will open your eyes to what is not mentioned by Hindu idealogues. Please...it is easy to criticize the British, but remember the me and my kind would not have access to any kind of formalised education if it wasn't for their policy.
As for the evidence of Babri Masjid you speak of Tulsidas does mention Ayodhya, but he does not place it in its present geographical location. In fact he gives more importance to Prayag. And the evidence you speak of...there is a book called 'Ayodhya: Archeology after Demolition' in the Tracts for the Times series by Orient Longman...very clearly reveals the dubious methods used by the Hindutva crowd to manufacture the evidence to support this theory.
The definition of what constitutes Indian is itself problematic. You are trying to Homodenize an inherently heterogenous culture. Muslims and Christians had established themselves in South India long before the middle-ages.
As for bad Muslim rulers, there were Bad hindu rulers too and during times of war they were (had to be) as ruthless as those they were fighting...simple Logic. If they weren't tough luck...they deserved to be defeated.

roshan

Roshan I would have to disagree with you on what constitutes Indian. The vedantic brahmanical philosophy you speak of was for an elite group and a large portion of the populace was denied access to it.

***** yes, "lower" caste hindus were not given access and werent taught about the philosophy of hinduism for a long time - it was restricted to the brahmins. but things are changing. anyway, the philosophy that im talking about(advaita vedanta) was made by shankaracharya - and he preached to all, and he was very much against the caste system.

Contrary to what you may think the evidence for a non/pre Aryan civilization is pretty strong.

****** actually, no. a lot of it has been debunked. for example, the language of the harappans has already been deciphered - it was sanskrit.

What of non-vedic religious practices. I would suggest a trip through the tribal outbacks of India. It will open your eyes to what is not mentioned by Hindu idealogues.

******* like what?

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: roshan ]</p>

Corwin

*gags*
Yup. The same excuse has been used in just about every society to rationalize behavior against women and minorites. People have rationalized slavery because 'slaves were so much better off and HAPPY the way they are' and rationalized female genital mutilation in the same way.

If Sati was such a great thing, and if hindu women were so happy to do it.... why are there texts suggesting the best way to bind a woman for sati? If it's so great why did they frequently have to be TIED UP AND THROWN ON THE FUCKING PYRE?!?!?!?!?

roshan

i havent seen those texts.

anyway, sati is actually condemned by hindu texts. problem is, people dont follow their religion too well.

hinduwoman

Name the text and verse. Make sure it is an authentic dharmashastra or epic rather than missionary pamphlet.

As for being tied up and thrown, it occured in 19th century Bengal most of all. Widows had property rights over their husband's land, so guess who were most eager to kill her. she was drugged and tied.

Note: not all hindu women were very happy to do it. For some death was preferable to life as a destitute widow or an inauspicious widow. That is socio-religious coercion, because among the uppercastes widow remarriage was prohibited, in the later middle ages. Lower caste women, for whom widowhood was not so much a burden, or in communities where remarriage was permitted, did not committ sati in general.

hinduwoman

susheel, Read Elst's book on Aydohya and sitaRam Goel's.
You can think them as "fellow travellers of fascisim" but the point is the secularists never refuted the evidence they presented.

Susheel

So after being excluded for centuries, the magnanimous upper castes decided 'Indianize' us by offering us the wonderful gift of Vedanta...bit pretentious isn't it?

Yes, just as Creation Science has debunked the theory of evolution. Please, the reference to the Harappan script deciphering. I promise to modify my views if this is valid.

One small example. The Mandahechus of Andhra Pradesh have the oral narrative Jambha Puranam. This very marginalised caste group has a legend which traces their lineage back to Jambhava. But as a primary deity. They have a genesis mythology. Listening to it one quickly realises which came first. This Jambhava was later incorporated into the Ramayana. Any of the ammans or maadans in South India. These are non-vedic deities.
Thanks hinduwoman...I shall definitely include them in my reading list for the month.

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Susheel ]</p>

roshan

So after being excluded for centuries, the magnanimous upper castes decided 'Indianize' us by offering us the wonderful gift of Vedanta...bit pretentious isn't it?

*** fist of all, the lower castes werent always excluded. this was something that happened later on, and now, people have realized the error of their ways and are changing. but all of vedantas greatest saints have always preached to the poor - shankarcharya(founder of advaita, 7th century), chaitanya(founder of achintya bhedabheda, 12th century) and many, many others.

One small example. The Mandahechus of Andhra Pradesh have the oral narrative Jambha Puranam. This very marginalised caste group has a legend which traces their lineage back to Jambhava. But as a primary deity. They have a genesis mythology. Listening to it one quickly realises which came first. This Jambhava was later incorporated into the Ramayana. Any of the ammans or maadans in South India. These are non-vedic deities.

*** but this does not necesarrily mean that hinduism "absorbed" these other cultures - this could also mean that hinduism is the product of the fusion of many cultures. south india isnt the only place with tribal religions. there are many non hindu aryan tribal religions also, like that of the bhils, or the kafirs of NE pakistan.

roshan

* Decipherment of Indus Script

Dr. SR Rao, who has deciphered the Indus script, is an ex-head of Archaeological Survey of India, a renowned Marine archaeologist, has been studying archeology since 1948 and has discovered and excavated numerous Indus sites. He has authored several monumental works on Harappan civilization and Indus script. To summarize his method of decipherment of Indus script, he assigned to each Indus basic letter the same sound-value as the West Asian letter which closely resembled it. After assigning these values to the Indus letters, he proceeded to try to read the inscriptions on the Indus seals. The language that emerged turned out to be an "Aryan" one belonging to Sanskrit family. The people who resided at Harappa, Mohenjo-Daro, and other sites were culturally Aryan is thus confirmed by the decipherment of the Harappan script and its identity with Sanskrit family. The Harappa culture was a part of a continuing evolution of the Vedic culture which had developed on the banks of Saraswati river. And it should be rightly termed as Vedic-Saraswati civilization.

Among the many words yielded by Dr. Rao's decipherment are the numerals aeka, tra, chatus, panta, happta/sapta, dasa, dvadasa and sata (1,3,4,5,7, 10,100) and the names of Vedic personalities like Atri, Kasyapa, Gara, Manu, Sara, Trita, Daksa, Druhu, Kasu, and many common Sanskrit words like, apa (water), gatha, tar (savior), trika, da, dyau (heaven), dashada, anna (food), pa(protector), para (supreme), maha, mahat, moks, etc.

While the direct connection between the late Indus script (1600 BC) and the Brahmi script could not be definitely established earlier, more and more inscriptions have been found all over the country in the last few years, dating 1000 BC, 700 BC, and so on, which have bridged the gap between the two. Now it is evident that the Brahmi script evolved directly from the Indus script.

(Sources: Decipherment of the Indus Script, Dawn and Development of Indus Civilization, Lothal and the Indus Civilization, all by S. R. Rao)

EDIT: there was a problem when i posted this yesterday, only half of it got posted.

i posted links to two online books and a couple of articles about the AIT, but i will have to refind the pages. ill post it later.

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: roshan ]</p>

hinduwoman

susheel this is something I have noticed; no matter what the hindu uppercastes do now, they cannot win.
for centuries they have kept the lower castes down and now when they try to right it they get called pretentious.