Freethought & Rationalism Archive

excreationist · 03-17-2003, 06:08 AM

Note that I don't support this - like how George Orwell probably didn't support the ideas in his 1984 book. It is about a potential nightmare scenario - like 1984...

Note to U.S. government - don't do this! It seems reasonable at first but then it gets worse!

from Opinion/Editorial section of the Washington Times - the most efficient and effective form of interrogation:

Quote:

With the capture of top al Qaeda terrorist Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (known as "KSM"), getting him to disgorge the contents of his brain quickly and truthfully is critically necessary before his network has a chance to vanish undercover.

What, then, would the most efficient and effective form of interrogation be? In 1995, the Philippine State Police captured an al Qaeda agent. They knew he was planning some terrorist act, but didn't know what. So they tortured him � the old-fashioned way, right out of the movies with putting out cigarettes on his testicles, breaking his ribs, the whole brutal nine yards. It took two weeks and finally he broke, revealing a plot to hijack 11 airliners. By exposing and unraveling the plot, the torture saved hundreds, perhaps thousands of lives, so it was clearly justified.

The ethics of torturing KSM should not be an issue. As a practical matter, the question is: How to torture him in such a way that it takes hours, not days or weeks, for him to break; and when he does, you know for sure he is telling the truth.

To start, you don't want to use a so-called truth serum like thiopental sodium. It acts by confusing your memory so much you forget who is your friend and who is your enemy. So you think the interrogator is your friend and you talk � except you can't think or remember clearly. No, you want KSM to be thinking and remembering with crystal clarity.

The best lie detector � although it's not used as such � would be a medical brain-scanning device called a functional MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). Light years in effectiveness beyond a polygraph, an fMRI scan can distinguish � instantly, in real time � when someone is lying as opposed to telling the truth, as different regions in the brain would light up.

So here's what to do.

Fly in from the United States and set up an fMRI at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, where KSM is being held, and do three things: Place KSM under the fMRI brain scanner; put him on a mechanical respirator; and give him an injection of a paralytic drug called succinyl choline chloride (SCC).

SCC, used as a veterinarian anesthetic, causes muscle paralysis by blocking neuromuscular junction. It causes immobilization without affecting the central nervous system, such that KSM cannot move, yet he is fully conscious and there is no analgesia (pain relief). Injection by an M.D. anesthesiologist of SCC into the nerve tracts leading to the diaphragm will paralyze the muscles needed for breathing. KSM can think, remember, and talk, but he cannot breathe. The mechanical respirator breathes for him. Without the respirator, he would quickly suffocate and die.

The respirator is a CPAP, a Continuous Positive Airway Pressure unit used for treating sleep apnea, with a nasal mask. The unit itself is placed in an adjacent room with a long hose, as no metal can be around the huge magnets of the fMRI. The unit will force air via the nasal passageway into the lungs. His mouth is free and clear to talk.

Now the interrogation begins. KSM is asked a series of questions to which the answers are known (e.g., Are you a Muslim? Would you like a drink of pig grease?). If he lies, the respirator is turned off. Few experiences are more terrifying than that of suffocation. After a sufficiently terrifying period of suffocation, the respirator is turned back on, the question is asked again, and the process repeated until he tells the truth. Once you have the regions in KSM's brain clearly distinguished that light up when he is lying or telling the truth, the serious questioning starts. It will not take long, an hour or two at the most, before KSM is singing like a full chorus of canaries.
.....

Anyway, the U.S. or some other government might think that it is justifiable to use this interrogation technique on terrorists. It doesn't really physically hurt them anyway - unless they refuse to answer... then there is a problem... (their possible death) but their refusal to answer can just be taken as confirmation that they are guilty.

So anyway, the end result is that either they ultimately answer all of the questions truthfully, or they die from suffocation (implying that they were keeping dangerous secrets).

The government might think this is a good technique to use for things like murder trials. Either the murderer confesses truthfully regarding whether they thought they were innocent or guilty or they suffocate and possibly die because of the lies they are telling. The government could prevent them from suffocating to death... they could just see that it was a lie and deduce the truth and then put them in prison or whatever.

It could also be used on bank robbers to see where they hid the loot - or where the murderers buried the body...

It could be used on all criminals to ask them about all of the laws they've broken. e.g. "have you ever smoked pot?", "have you ever sold pot?", "have you ever used cocaine?", "have you ever stolen anything?", "have you ever had sex with anyone when they didn't want to?", "do you know of anyone who has committed a crime and doesn't have a criminal record?", etc. And their confessions could be recorded so that they could be prosecuted for the crimes.

If the government is still obsessed with eliminating terrorism, they could ask the criminals if they love America and it's president, etc. (and "if they're not for America they're against America")

Then the government would think that interrogating everyone would be a good idea. There might be many people without criminal records that are guilty of criminal acts such as cheating on their taxes or breaking copyright laws. There would need to be some way of making sure everyone is tested.... it could involve some kind of identification tag/card that is renewed upon testing which they need to use in order to buy things and is automatically scanned when they go into public places, etc. Maybe hi-resolution satellites or planes/helicopters could find people using thermal imaging to see if they have a current identification card. It could be implanted in them or something.

Then the next step could be to see if people *intend* to do anything criminal (well the criminals should be tested first about that)... the next step after that would be to see if people *love* America and its people and government institutions, etc. As George W. Bush apparently said about nations who harbour terrorists - "whoever isn't for us (and stops terrorists) is against us". So the test could see if people were patriotic. If they weren't patriotic then they would be put in prison (and be enemies of America). If the test for patriotism was made progressively tougher, only those who love and admire the government and willingly obey it will escape being classified as criminals. The population of non-super-patriotic "criminals" would be very large (though it would have grown only fairly gradually).... since the current President is a big supporter of capital punishment, perhaps that would be a cheap and easy way to dispose of them. (And it prevents the criminals from contaminating "real" Americans with anti-American sentiment) The interrogation technique is (as far as we know) 100% accurate so there wouldn't be a risk of "innocent" people being killed.

In the end, only people who are happy with the government will survive. Unpatriotic people (traitors, etc) would appear every now and then, but the detection program would find them and separate them from society....

I guess it is kind of good... either you're happy with the government and are law-abiding and you survive, or you aren't and you are caught and quickly exterminated. (They have your confession - unless you suffocated during the confession - so there is no need for a trial)
If the "traitors" weren't exterminated they could do slave labour or something but their ideas might leak out and infect more Americans... and their new life probably wouldn't be very satisfying to them so maybe death is the best fate for the traitors...

The super-patriotic nation could conquer the rest of the world and subject it to its interrogation technique...

seanie · 03-17-2003, 06:18 AM

Why do I get the feeling Jack had a stiffy when he wrote that.

excreationist · 03-17-2003, 06:29 AM

Nobody by the name of Jack wrote that... I guess I got a bit of a metaphorical stiffy (head swell), but not a real stiffy.

seanie · 03-17-2003, 06:33 AM

I was refering to the article you link to.

It was written by Jack Wheeler, who apparently is president of the "Freedom Research Foundation".

The name alone suggests to me he might be one of those wacky Libertarian kooks.

And borderline psychotic to boot.

MortalWombat · 03-17-2003, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seanie
I was refering to the article you link to.

It was written by Jack Wheeler, who apparently is president of the "Freedom Research Foundation".

Formerly the "French Research Foundation?"

seanie · 03-17-2003, 07:17 AM

Careful now.

I'm not sure Jack would like comments like that.

You don't want to wake up on a respirator now do you....

excreationist · 03-17-2003, 07:26 AM

seanie: oh.

Well this Jack Wheeler guy seems quite famous...
he was hero of the day at the Daily Objectivist - it seems to be a Ayn Rand site that likes Libertarianism.

At Newsmax.com it says

Quote:

....he began in the early 1980s a series of extensive visits to anti-Soviet guerrilla insurgencies in Nicaragua, Angola, Mozambique, Ethiopia, Cambodia, Laos, and Afghanistan, and to democracy movements in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, becoming an unofficial liaison between them and the Reagan White House. Based on this, he developed the strategy for dismantling the Soviet Empire adopted by the White House known as the �Reagan Doctrine.� It worked....

His Newsmax article about getting rid of the names of Iran and Iraq if they become democracies is quite good I think... they were apparently named after WWI by other countries and Jack Wheeler suggests they could be called Mesopotamia and Persia again.

Henry-Finland · 03-17-2003, 07:32 AM

excreationist

Very well written!

We are going in this direction:

"Everyone has to pee in the bottle so we can see if they have used... condoms."
His Exellence Pope Sherlock III

"French kisses? anyone? Confess, come with me to the same boot, it makes You feel better!"
Cardinal Continerectus

Remember:
All Big Brothers are reading, watching, collecting information..

Henry

Psycho Economist · 03-17-2003, 10:08 AM

Why bother with the fMRI, when you already know the answers you want to hear?

Now at the risk of dignifying this with a response... You can have good temporal resolution at the expense of spatial resolution and vice versa. While fMRI is at the optimum of the two dimensions with current technology, it's not good enough at measuring both to be used as a lie detector. There's a reason why these things aren't being mass-produced and shipped to every FBI field office already.

Added:
It worries me that this got picked up by the Washington Times. I doubt they retell it in the spirit Jack meant it (since he's apparently Mr. Objectivism, 1997)... and the administration consists of the type of people who take that paper seriously.

Amen-Moses · 03-17-2003, 11:35 AM

Or they could just kidnap his children and hold them hostage until he talks, a few videos of his 7 year old crying whilst being threatened which a bacon McMuffin will soon have him blabbing.

Amen-Moses

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03-17-2003, 06:18 AM	#2
seanie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edinburgh. Scotland Posts: 2,532	Why do I get the feeling Jack had a stiffy when he wrote that.

03-17-2003, 06:29 AM	#3
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Nobody by the name of Jack wrote that... I guess I got a bit of a metaphorical stiffy (head swell), but not a real stiffy.

03-17-2003, 06:33 AM	#4
seanie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edinburgh. Scotland Posts: 2,532	I was refering to the article you link to. It was written by Jack Wheeler, who apparently is president of the "Freedom Research Foundation". The name alone suggests to me he might be one of those wacky Libertarian kooks. And borderline psychotic to boot.

03-17-2003, 07:17 AM	#6
seanie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edinburgh. Scotland Posts: 2,532	Careful now. I'm not sure Jack would like comments like that. You don't want to wake up on a respirator now do you....

03-17-2003, 07:32 AM	#8
Henry-Finland Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 7,018	excreationist Very well written! We are going in this direction: "Everyone has to pee in the bottle so we can see if they have used... condoms." His Exellence Pope Sherlock III "French kisses? anyone? Confess, come with me to the same boot, it makes You feel better!" Cardinal Continerectus Remember: All Big Brothers are reading, watching, collecting information.. Henry

03-17-2003, 10:08 AM	#9
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	Why bother with the fMRI, when you already know the answers you want to hear? Now at the risk of dignifying this with a response... You can have good temporal resolution at the expense of spatial resolution and vice versa. While fMRI is at the optimum of the two dimensions with current technology, it's not good enough at measuring both to be used as a lie detector. There's a reason why these things aren't being mass-produced and shipped to every FBI field office already. Added: It worries me that this got picked up by the Washington Times. I doubt they retell it in the spirit Jack meant it (since he's apparently Mr. Objectivism, 1997)... and the administration consists of the type of people who take that paper seriously.

03-17-2003, 11:35 AM	#10
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Or they could just kidnap his children and hold them hostage until he talks, a few videos of his 7 year old crying whilst being threatened which a bacon McMuffin will soon have him blabbing. Amen-Moses

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