luvluv

Mr. Darwin:


(1) I would give a resounding no. I think you can sincerely pray for something which would be disastrous for you to have. I've prayed sincerly for many things which, in retropsect, I can see it would have been deadly for me to receive.

(2) Yes, it would appear to me that God answered the prayer in the negative. We can get into how that answer could be justified if you want.

(3) I think one is damned for losing their faith, whatever the reason. Are you asking whether they can be rightly damned for losing their faith? I would say that an unanswered prayer is not sufficient intellectual grounds for losing faith, however much emotionally it would prompt one to drop one's faith. Ultimately faith in any God worthy placing faith in entails the notion that God ultimately knows more and better than we do, and that His decision to answer prayer in the negative or affirmative would be justifiable in light of His superior knowledge. Thus, unanswered prayer ought to be EXPECTED occasionally (perhaps even more often than not) by any believer. The believer generally accepts that he does not know better than God what is best for him, and therefore ought not to expect that all of his prayers actually represent his, or the world's, best interests. I know this from experience, in that I have very often very earnestly prayed for things that I am now very glad that God did not give me.

The specific reason why this girl's prayer was not answered may have little to do with what is best for her life in particular but with what is best for the entire state of affairs should EVERYONE in her position have their prayer answered. So while there may not be a conceivable reason or means by which this particular girl benefited directly from her death, the overall state of affairs might be better if everyone is not always able to pray themselves out of every undesirable situation which is not of their own doing.

And FWIW, I'm starting to feel a little slimy using this girl's actual death as fodder for an argument, so perhaps in the future we could discuss this in the abstract?

christ-on-a-stick

luvluv said, Why? How is it "fodder"??? It's a real world example of something (the efficacy of prayer) that Xians claim exists in the real world, not just in the abstract. Why shy away from the harsh realities?

scombrid

I wish I had a direct line to god.

I have several holy-roller friends that say essentially the same and on analysis their lives are no better or worse on average than my godless, catholic, and believing but not really religious friends. Saying “it works” doesn’t make it so. I knew a great goal keeper that used to tape a California raisin doll to the inside of the goal post for luck, and he swore “it worked”.

Of course the easy cop-out is that none of my friends, the CoC guys, the free-will Baptists, the Non-Denom guys, the catholics, the presbys, the agnostics, or the atheist have it right and that's why none are better off than the rest.

We should take responsibility for our problems, as we are solely responsible for them. In the absence of a god that is the only logical position. However, if your god exists as you posit then a lot of bad shit is his doing. Our very nature that causes us to do bad shit is his doing. The ultimate question here is where to delineate the “it’s our shit we’re stepping in” from the “god really screwed us this time; do we deserve hell for this?”. I take the position that it’s all on us with no sign of intervention having occurred.

Where we can see consequences for our actions (death, liver failure, injury, whatever) we are responsible for those choices because we have the ability to know what consequence will follow an action. Where our responsibility ends is the heaven/hell issue. If it's in our nature to screw up then we can learn the earthly consequenses and correct behavior to minimize our suffering. This doesn't apply to heaven/hell/eternal consequenses. Other mortals tell us that there is heaven and hell and tell us 1,000,000,000,000,000 ways to end up in either place but never offer proof of the existance of either place. No proof is offered as to what course of action leads to either place.

Therefore, it's pretty unfair to damn somebody to hell that got killed before they figured out the unknowable true path to glory. Whereas, it is fair for someone to suffer liver failure because they popped pills and 90proof for 30years because they can know what will happen as a result of the booze. We see people with liver failure after over-indulging in toxic substances for years. When somebody dies, all we see is a dead body and have know way of observing a soul or observing where that soul is after the body died.



Yeah, that’s why my Church of Christ buddies all have “Know Fear” t-shirts.

I guess you’re afraid that this fortune will stop if you quit giving the glory to god? I don't see where god is necessary for you to have made a difference in your community.

Err umm. But most theists I’ve run across will attribute floods, earthquakes, etc… as being acts of god. Back in the day people blamed others in their community for angering god and causing the acts of god. You know, “The church got hit by lightening, pastor bob must have pissed off god”. (Oh, wait. People today still do that especially the leaders of the Christian coalition. “Stupid fundy muslims flew a plane into several buildings. Goddidit because of the fags.” Earthquake hits afganistan, it’s because they’re muslims. Earthquake hits SanFrancisco, it’s the fags’ fault.”)

luvluv

Lauri:

It seems sort of disrespectful to me to use someone's actual death as a means to an end in an argument when it is not necessary. If your daughter died, and someone came up to you and said "I guess this proves that God doesn't exist", I'd imagine you would consider the comment disrespectful.

I have no problem dealing with the reality that innocent people die at the hands of others even when they are praying for deliverance. To use an actual person in the argument and start speculating on where her actual soul is, at present, seems to me to be in bad taste. Primarily, as I said, because it is not necessary for the discussion to take place.

Rhea

Unfortunately, luvluv, other christians INSIST on "real world" examples. ANd not only that, will only consider them if they are famous.

Kind of a catch 22 for us.

Ronin

I try to avoid blaming the victims, schu.

They are, at their very best, simply irrationally humorous...and, at their worst, tragic victims of a corrupt sham.

Proclaiming this makes the atheist unpopular to the masses of the simple, who crave an escapist's solace at all cost to their humanity.

I prefer to recognize the integrity of self-determination and the rational recognition of reality in plain view ~ in avoidance of the potential 'comforts' attributed to the cloudy and mind numbing denial of simplicity and sensibility.

We recognize that natural events and ambiguities are not ever influenced by a wish addressed to an imaginary friend.

I've lived through Camille, Hugo, Elena and most recently Georges and have seen the huge brick churches with their lightning rods utterly destroyed despite the prayerful pleadings of the sheep.

So, if judged by the laws of probablilities the physical results of prayer are none.

Most debating christians, even Radorth, should admit to this truth ~ as the same 'personal' and unquantifiable result of petitioning a deity is equivalent to that of a lucky coin. It is all internal and quite self-deluded...albeit beneficial to the patient.

Some find this personally acceptable.

Still, I often watch the hands of the selfish, clasped in the hopes of the vain, as my two hands dig through the rubble of natural tragedies...and later walk from them when the day is done, as they give credit to their absent fairy and feel unmistakenly sad that they will not ever know true connection to life and death.

I agree with these words from Percy Shelley regarding prayer ~

"Christianity inculcates the necessity of supplicating the Deity.

Prayer may be considered under two points of view; -as an endeavor to change the intentions of God, or as a formal testimony of our obedience.

But the former case supposes that the caprices of a limited intelligence can occasionally instruct the Creator of the world how to regulate the universe; and the latter, a certain degree of servility analogous to the loyalty demanded by earthly tyrants.

Obedience indeed is only the pitiful and cowardly egotism of him who thinks that he can do something better than reason."

christ-on-a-stick

Hi luvluv, Certainly, but no one here is directing their comments to Lesley's parents.

Rhea made the point (I was going to make) quite nicely: If Christians use "real-life" examples of alleged miracles, answered prayers etc. to bolster their position, how is it not appropriate for us to use real-life examples when discussing the apparent failure of prayer?

Biff the unclean

luvluv: (1) think you can sincerely pray for something which would be disastrous for you to have. I've prayed sincerly for many things which, in retropsect, I can see it would have been deadly for me to receive.
This would indicate that you think that God would prevent bad things from happening to you because you were misguided. But we know that that is not the case.

(2) Yes, it would appear to me that God answered the prayer in the negative. We can get into how that answer could be justified if you want.
I'm not so interested on hearing another justification as I am in hearing how this is not a random event.

(3) I think one is damned for losing their faith, whatever the reason.
Then what happened to your answer from #1? If God will not let you be harmed because of your misguided wishes then why would he damn a person to an eternity of suffering for being misguided?

MrDarwin

That's quite a chip on your shoulder Radorth. Especially considering that my comment was not directed at you.

GeoTheo

I'm kind of jumping in here at the tail end so I apologise if this has been covered already. I was just thinking:
People have to die somtime. I t is heart wrenching when loved ones die and I have heard of several people losing their faith over it, but God never promised people wouldn't suffer physical death. It seems obvious but yet people still struggle with this.
I also think God most often answeres prayers by giving us grace to handle certian situations without miraculously intervening.
There are some prayers I feel God always answers like:
"God, please help me to read my Bible more." "Or God please help me have the grace to deal with this difficult co-worker."
Or "God please open up opportunities for me to share my faith."
I have prayed these prayers and had them answered often. I feel God giving me power to do these things. I think it is because they are things I already know is God's will. When my day to die is and things like that only God knows.