sakrilege

I know some quakers, I didn't realize congregationalists were similar. Thanks for the info.

Susan

sakrilege

Hey, my hat with ztyqn's image is smashing you know!

David Bowden

Yes - generally speaking, Catholic churches are led by more-educated (and frequently better-educated) ministers than Protestant churches.

I think Helen and I interpreted your question differently. I interpreted it as: "what are the minimal ordination requirements for someone intending to found a nondenominational church?" and Helen seems to have interpreted it as: "what does an established nondenominational church expect of its candidate ministers?" Both our answers are right on the money, and they still don't tell the whole story, but you get a good idea of the academic and professional range that is possible among non-denom church leaders.

I'm sure it is; Helen is, after all, a high-quality Christian!

I think it's ultimately a matter of how they want to identify themselves. To my knowledge, there's no hard and fast rule concerning when to call a multi-congregation association of churches a denomination.

A church that has only one location and is not affiliated with an existing denomination is clearly non-denominational, but it could someday join an existing denomination if it meets the denomination's entry requirements. I doubt that this often happens with the Catholic church, but from time to time the Nazarenes would absorb a standalone church and at times it has merged with entire smaller denominations with almost identical (Wesley-Arminian) theology and practice.

That's one way of becoming "denominational." Another is simply to keep planting satellite churches that gradually become self-sustaining, but keep them accountable to a central organization. The exact border is blurry, but at some point a "mother" church with a number of such "daughter" congregations is operationally the same as a denomination, whether it calls itself one or not.

I suppose it depends on whether the "mother" church comes to share the decisionmaking power with the "daughters". But since there are so many different types of denominational structure, I'm sure people could debate just about any definition we arbitrarily agree on.

It depends on which two schools you compare, really. Nazarene Bible colleges will be emphatically Wesley-Arminian in doctrine and most Baptist schools will lean strongly Calvinist (one of many possible distinctions between schools), but all teach salvation by grace through faith in Jesus, and most will cover enough Christian history and theology that students will understand their school's position in the "sea of faith". Some schools do try to stamp out any tendency on the part of students to stray from the school's stated theological preferences, and some don't.

Non-denoms, being diverse, don't all teach the same things, just as not all denominations teach the same things. And non-denom schools may agree with some denominations in some areas and disagree with the same denominations on other issues. Or, they may teach identical theology, and differ only in practical ministry training. A few Southern Baptist ministers I've known got their education through Moody and not one of the Baptist denominational schools, so a lot of Bible school training translates fairly easy from church to church. I think the biggest difference between schools that aren't strictly denominational is whether they're liberal or conservative in interpretation - but even that line has gotten blurred in recent decades, at some schools.

Finally, certain Bible schools are greatly respected by conservatives generally, whatever their theological orientation or denominational affiliation (Asbury, Wheaton and Moody), and some are preferred by liberals and generally reviled by conservatives (Princeton, Harvard, and U of Chicago).

Have I thoroughly clouded the issue? Here are a few great references you might check out if you want more satisfying answers to your questions:

One is entitled <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0687069831/qid=1031898495/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-5261189-9940704" target="_blank">Handbook of Denominations in the U.S.</a>; it briefly summarizes the teaching and history of several hundred denominations. I don't have a recent edition; the current one may include the more prominent non-denominational churches, and it may even try to distinguish between denoms and non-denoms. My old copy had a really cool chart in it that showed how the different churches branched off from one another, beginning with the Orthodox-Catholic schism and the Protestant Reformation, and traces all the way down to denominations created in the 20th century. This book is definitely the authoritative book on denominations.

There's an series of books entitled "How to Be a Perfect Stranger: A Guide to Etiquette in Other People's Religious Ceremonies" - these are great when it comes to getting the basics of what this or that group believes and how it "does its thing". Each denomination or religion gets its own brief, easy-to-read chapter, and I've found the summarizations about as accurate as can be found anywhere. FYI, they've also put out titles specializing in weddings and funerals, in case you're ever invited to a Jewish funeral or a Mormon wedding and wonder what the heck to wear or just what to expect.

There are two books you might find it worthwhile to seek out in the reference section of a good library. The first is <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/019211655X/qid=1031898664/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-5261189-9940704?v=glance&s=books" target="_blank">The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church</a>. First rate general reference with plenty of entries germane to this thread, but at $125 it's maybe not something you'd pick up at Borders on a whim. It's a huge reference book you could get lost in for hours, if you're into the arcana of Christianity or just want a really definitive, um, definition.

Another volume, similar in format but definitely not as technical as the Dictionary, is <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0198600240/qid=1031899319/sr=1-66/ref=sr_1_66/104-5261189-9940704?v=glance&s=books" target="_blank">The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought</a>. I bought this for my brother last year and now I wish I'd kept it and given him a nice coffee mug instead...

-David

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: David Bowden / wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

HelenM

*ahem*

I don't have information to counter that as a general statement.

But - as a spouse and parent I'm very glad to be in a church where the leaders are educated in being spouses and parents through experience.

So, to me there are other things that are just as important as 'how much schooling one has had'.

Maybe more important, in fact. I want to have leaders who have the wherewithall to understand life.

(Granted it's from a Christian perspective - but that's always going to be the case if one is choosing between churches)

Helen