uhcord

I refuse to even stand up to it, mainly because I'm not afriad of what others think or say. I usually end up having to explain why I don't, but really is not a hassle. Most young people are still not brainwashed yet, so I can usually get through to my peers with reason.

GaryP

I think "at the end of the day" the decision will be beneficial.

The process of amending the constitution is a long one. This will lead to a public debate which would never have happened without Dr. Newdow.

Atheists must stop being bashful about letting other citizens know that we are here and we are just as sincere Americans as any other group.

After more thought, I think most, or at least many, of those who opposed the decision will reconsider.

But if our neighbors and friends don't know that we are Atheists, how will they put a human face on this problem of official discrimination? I think that as many of us as possible need to be "good will" ambassadors for non-believers.

CaptainDave

I have noted a consistent assertion on this board that we are outmatched by the fundies in the arena of the media. I hadn't thought much about this before frequenting this forum.

There are a few major, well-organized, professional organizations (ACLU, PFTAW, AU) whose goals pretty much mirror ours. Do they lack the resources to match the fundy media machine? Or is it that their focus is more on political action than spin doctoring? Are we missing a critical component in our war against the fundies?

Alonzo Fyfe

The trouble with this strategy is that those who you do not explain your actions to are left with the impression that those who do not believe in God are anti-American, refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands. It reinforces a prejudice.

May I suggest that you attempt, at least once, to use a slightly different tact -- that you request permission to deliver your own pledge separately, leaving out the words "under God" as a way of communicating that atheists are not anti-American. We want to say the pledge of allegiance, but at the same time we resent being forced into a situation where we must lie to do so.

Well, I may be projecting some opinions onto you that you do not share. But, if you agree with the underlying ideas, that this may be a better way of communicating what you truly believe -- in a way not so easily misinterpreted.

Alonzo Fyfe

The ACLU is not a public policy organization. It is concerned solely with the law and, as far as I am aware, cares nothing about public opinion.

AU has 60,000 members. Many opposing organizations have 100 times as many people. It does some very good work for what it has available -- I have seen organizations with significantly more members that are significantly less well run.

I do not know much about PFTAW, but it does not seem to be a media or public-relations organization. Rather, it is a lobbying organization. (Honestly, its web site reads more like a news site; there is very little in the way of action and involvement.)

In other words, I do not see anything near the level of public-relations activity and marketing of ideas that the opposition focuses on.

Feather

I waffle on my opinion of the impact of this guy and his antics, also.

But the very fact that atheists must "fear" in the way you describe, to me, makes Newdow's efforts worth taking, and worth taking right now as he's done.

Splat

Alonzo's right. Atheists have almost zero political power and we've got a huge PR problem.

According to the
<a href="http://www.pewtrusts.org/pdf/vf_pew_research_religion_poll.pdf" target="_blank">Pew Trust study on post-911 attitudes</a> (p. 5): "Atheists continue to receive much lower favorability ratings than the major religions - just 32% view athiests positively, while about half (49%) rate them unfavorably." That compares with favorability ratings ranging from 59% (17% unfavorable) for moslem-americans, and 75-78% (5-8% unfavorable) for xians and jews.

Only two things will make this change anytime soon: 1) if something dramatic and simple enough to capture the American imagination happens(Sec Web Captures Bin Laden!); or 2) a well-funded Atheist Anti-Defamation League, complete with PACs, flaks, and lawyers.

Otherwise, all we've got is the grassroots approach. That can work too, but it'll take time.

Buffman

Several items:

GaryP

Atheists must stop being bashful about letting other citizens know that we are here and we are just as sincere Americans as any other group.

Though I do not disagree with your thought, I feel that it may miss the mark. The issue isn't that there are patriotic atheists in America. The issue is what is best for our country? A solid wall of church-state separation, or no wall? IMO, that wall has been, and continues to be, in the best interests of every American, whether theist or non-theist. The recent breaches are a threat to everyone's long term ability to express their individual conscience without fear of government intrusion.

CaptainDave

There are a few major, well-organized, professional organizations (ACLU, PFTAW, AU) whose goals pretty much mirror ours. Do they lack the resources to match the fundy media machine? Or is it that their focus is more on political action than spin doctoring? Are we missing a critical component in our war against the fundies?

I apologize because I simply do not remember in which thread I placed the post, but I cited any number of religious/conservative organizations which have, for all practical purposes, taken over the running/controlling of the government and the media.---In answer to your query about resources, the radical religious right is a financial powerhouse and extremely successful propaganda lobby. (If you wish to gain an entry level insight into just how powerful they are, start here and follow-up on every organization listed).

<a href="http://www.ncrp.org/articles/dap/13.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ncrp.org/articles/dap/13.htm</a>

Now go to this URL and click on each of the six white tabs at the top of the page and see what influence this group is having on government. Then check out the eight squares directly below the tabs. Read very carefully because these people are expert at obfuscation.

<a href="http://www.heritage.org/" target="_blank">http://www.heritage.org/</a>

Alonzo

I do not know much about PFTAW, but it does not seem to be a media or public-relations organization. Rather, it is a lobbying organization. (Honestly, its web site reads more like a news site; there is very little in the way of action and involvement.)
In other words, I do not see anything near the level of public-relations activity and marketing of ideas that the opposition focuses on.

<a href="http://www.nonprofitmatrix.com/news.asp?ID=121" target="_blank">http://www.nonprofitmatrix.com/news.asp?ID=121</a>

<a href="http://www.pfaw.org/about/" target="_blank">http://www.pfaw.org/about/</a>

<a href="http://www.pfaw.org/issues/right/" target="_blank">http://www.pfaw.org/issues/right/</a>

<a href="http://www.pfaw.org/news/press.asp?id=422" target="_blank">http://www.pfaw.org/news/press.asp?id=422</a>

General,

Ron Garrett just posted the following on the "Constitutional Amendment" string...."Money talks and bullshit walks." IMO he is dead on target. It takes cash to accomplish modern day revolutions in this country. The Boston Tea Party, or the Harper's Ferry, incidents will not promote a ground swell of public support for the kinds of issues at stake today. In order to reach the general public, provide accurate knowledge and repopulate the federal and state legislatures with knowledgeable members whose integrity can not be purchased, will take a considerable war chest. The religious right radicals have been building theirs for nearly 20 years. However, it has been their propaganda and stealth campaigns that have been the biggest contributors to their success.

Protestant propaganda has been the primary source of knowledge and indoctrination since the very beginning of this invaded country. (The victors wrote the history books...and still do.) That is why the Catholics had to establish their own educational system in this country. Read about the efforts of Archbishop John Hughes of New York. He thought that the public schools of 1840 were so clearly Protestant that public monies should be granted to Roman Catholic schools as well. Read about how 1869 parents in Cincinnati, Ohio, sued the public schools in an effort to purge them of their Protestant religious exercises. Even back then, the courts found nothing objectionable in these "non-dogmatic," yet clearly Protestant, observances.
("Church and State in America" by Edwin S. Gaustad, Oxford University Press, New York, 1999....Chap. 5, pg. 84)

Therefore it is important to understand just how frightened some Protestants have become over a more diversified and pluralistic America. An America that just might not be controllable by them in the near future. Also understand why the Catholics are supporting many of the issues being tauted by the these "Born Again" Christian Protestants, who most certainly do not represent American's mainstream Protestant community. I seriously doubt that the Catholics do so because they love "Born Again" Protestants. However, like any smart running back, he lets his linemen run interference and take the blocking hits for him. (Just some thoughts for consideration.)

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

Curses! Another typo.

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

Adding a URL.

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Defiant Heretic

I think that even if this decision gets overturned, it has at least brought our issues into the open.
I for one would rather face the opposition head on than be ignored completely.

Krieger

Me too.