Atticus_Finch

I would agree that many people who call themselves Christians do not deeply or critically investigate their beliefs. However, many do, including myself, and find that they stand the test.

Regards,

Finch

Atticus_Finch

To answer your questions, I have not read books attacking Christianity unless you include Sagan's Contact and "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking. However, I have spent countless hours reading the information on this and many other atheist web sites. I am always eager to read the arguments and theories of those who do not believe in God.

I do not have a ready list of atheists who have converted to Christianity. I am curious to see your list of Christians who fit your criteria who renounced their faith. Notable atheists who come to my mind are Madeline Murray O'Hare's son who became a Christian and one who I know you will love, Lee Stroebel.

You make reference to the "facts" of science in defense of your argument that one who has the correct information will inevitably be an atheist or agnostic. Science's explantions for orgins of life and the universe are utterly unconvincing and suffer from not just a materialistic bias but rather an absolute refusal to consider any explanation which is not limited to material causes. Therefore, it is not objective and reaches a predetermined set of conclusions. How did the universe begin? How did life arise out of non-life? Until you can answer these questions you must leave open the possibility of a supernatural explanation.

Since at best, the science of origins (as distinguished from empirical science) leaves us with the great questions unanswered, I look to some simple facts to arrive at the conclusion that Christianity is true. Christ lived, he performed miracles, he claimed to be God, he died and rose again on the third day. I believe these are historical facts. Based on those facts, testified to by witnesses, I believe that the rest of the claims of the bible must be taken seriously. You can chose not to believe them, but I believe they have a firm historical basis.

Call me ignorant if that makes you feel better about the choices you have made. However, I believe your religious zeal in defense of your beliefs reflects an underlying hostility or lack of confidence. Why is that? Did someone harm you in the name of "Christ". Is there some aspect of the moral teachings of the Bible that you did not want to follow? What is the story of your rejection of Christ ex-preacher? I would like to know.

Regards,

Finch

ex-preacher

No, those two don't count. Let me suggest that you read some books. It's really not fair otherwise, since I have read hundreds, if not thousands of books defending Christianity. Here is a starting list with ten specific topic areas:

1. The New Testament: A Historical Introduction by Bart Ehrman.

2. Jesus: An Historian’s Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant. An excellent approach to a controversial subject by one of the 20th century’s foremost historians of ancient Greece and Rome. Other books on Jesus that you may not have read: Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan (considered by many to be the leading Jesus scholar in the world), Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time by Marcus Borg, Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity by Bruce Bawer, Honest to Jesus by Robert Funk (of the famous Jesus Seminar), Contemporary Christologies: A Jewish Response by Eugune Borowitz (explains why most Jews have always rejected the claims of Christianity), What Really Happened to Jesus: A Historical Approach to the Resurrection by Gerd Lüdemann.

3. The Birth of Christianity by John Dominic Crossan. Other books on this theme: When Jesus Became God by Richard Rubenstein, From Jesus to Christ by Paula Fredricksen, The First Coming by Thomas Sheehan.

4. Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton Mack, on the authorship of the gospels. On the authorship of the Pentateuch, see Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman. On archaeology and the Bible, see the brand-new book Unearthing the Bible, by Finkelstein.

5. Beyond Fundamentalism by James Barr, an argument against inerrancy by an evangelical scholar. Other popular level books dealing with inerrancy: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, Some Mistakes by Moses by Robert Ingersoll, The Bible and Morality by Steve Allen, Don’t Know Much About the Bible by Kenneth Davis, The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy by Dennis McKinsey, In the Beginning (on Genesis 1-11)by Isaac Asimov.

6. Losing Faith in Faith by Dan Barker, a former preacher, a good overview of the various lines of reasoning which lead many strong Christians to become atheists.

7. Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell. Classic philosophical statement.

8. The Best of Robert Ingersoll edited by Roger Greeley. Ingersoll has been called the most popular orator of 19th century America. He was admired by Thomas Edison and Mark Twain, among others. His best known speech: “Why I Am an Agnostic.” Another common sense approach against Christianity can be found in The Bible According to Mark Twain.

9. Atheism: The Case Against God by George Smith. Other books on disbelief and nontheistic morality: 2,000 Years of Disbelief: Famous People with the Courage to Doubt by James Haught, Living Without Religion: Eupraxophy by Paul Kurtz (America’s leading humanist writer), Nonbelief and Evil: Two Arguments for the Nonexistence of God by Theodore Drange, Ethics for the New Millennium by the Dalai Lama, What is Atheism? by Doug Krueger.

10. The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. Dawkins is the most popular author on evolution and anything by him is worth reading (River Out of Eden, The Selfish Gene, Climbing Mount Improbable). For more on evolution, read any college-level biology textbook, any scientific magazine or journal, any general encyclopedia, or one of the following: Darwin’s Dangerous Idea by Daniel Dennett, The Dragons of Eden by Carl Sagan, The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, Darwin’s Ghost (an updating of Origin of Species) by Steve Jones, The Beak of the Finch by Jonathan Weiner, The Book of Life by Stephen Jay Gould (or anything by Gould), The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation, Abusing Science: The Case Against Creationism by Philip Kitcher, Why We Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer.

<strong> Actually, most of the authors listed above grew up as Christians, a number were ministers, lay leaders or religion professors. I would not consider either John Murray or Lee Strobel to have been leaders in the atheistic community prior to their conversions. Nearly all the stories of atheists converting to Christianity involve people who were not educated atheists, but were young adults in rebellion against the prevailing religion, who then gave in.

<strong> I don't recall mentioning the facts of science, but go on.

<strong> Science is not a person, it is a method. It happens to be a method which the overwhelming majority of Christians are willing to use in every area except matters which might threaten their religious beliefs. I think most scientists, and certainly myself, would accept a supernatural explanation if the proof for it was there. Theists are eager to see lack of evidence as a proof of divinity. Most scientists see lack of evidence as a prod to do more research.

Historically, Christians have often sought to stop scientific research when it appears to threaten religious tenets. Queen Victoria was advised not to use painkillers during childbirth since it violated Genesis 3:16. She said the bishops could have her next baby and she used the painkillers. Many Christians saw the Black Plague in Europe and smallpox in America as God's vengeance for sin. Many Christians opposed the use of vaccinations since that was "playing God." Many Christians also opposed the use of birth control and the research which produced the pill.

You are the one whose outlook has predetermined the conclusion. Remember, I spent my first 36 years as a Bible-believing Christian, 12 of those as a minister.


<strong> There are a number of fascinating theories regarding both abiogenesis and the origin (if there is one) to the universe. I have not closed the door on a supernatural explanation, I just see it as highly unlikely. You cannot the close the door on the possibility that the universe was created by fairies, can you?

<strong> Simplicity is no shortcut to truth. In my experience, the truth is often quite complicated. Is it simpler to believe also that the sun circles the earth?

<strong> I think it is highly likely that a man named Jesus lived and that he died. I am unconvinced that he did any miracles or rose again. You can believe those things, but you are stretching the meaning of the words to call them "historical facts."

<strong> There exists no convincing written first-hand testimony to the resurrection. Most scholars, even many conservatives, acknowledge that the 4 gospels were not written by eyewitnesses.

<strong> You are ignorant only in the sense of being unaware of the evidence and arguments. You have admitted as much. If you choose to remain ignorant, you are also foolish.

<strong> Could I say the same about you?

<strong> Glad you asked. Rather than bore everyone who has heard it already, let me direct you to the "Atheist's Testimony" thread in the Secular Lifestyle & Support Forum. You'll find my story and those of many other ex-Christians.

The answers to your other questions are no and no.

I guess you could say I didn't like the immorality exhibited by God in the Bible.

Godless Dave

I've read both those book and neither one attacks Christianity, or even mentions it, other than Hawking's visit to the Vatican.

Godless Dave

I know you were asking ex-preacher, but I'm going to answer anyway. Yes, several:

The teaching that homosexuality is immoral.

The teaching that women should be subservient to their fathers and husbands.

The teaching that sexual intercourse is solely for the purpose of procreation (although I'm not sure that's specifically addressed in the Bible).

But those are why I'm not a Christian, not why I'm an atheist.

Atticus_Finch

Sagan attacks Christianity in telling of the main character's experience in sunday school as a child. He suggests that she was too smart to be a Christian.

Regards,

Finch

Bree

Uh - that doesn't sound like an attack against Christianity. It sounds more like a compliment to the child.

Godless Dave

Atticus, suggesting that Christianity may not be the whole truth or the only truth is not "attacking" Christianity.

Amos

Your question doen't make sense because our gender is not determined by either the ovum or the sperm because our gender can be opposite to our sex. That is, in our gender identity we can be opposite to our sexual identity. So, there goes your qualification as a credibility judge.

If you mean which determines our sex I will tell you that the female is in charge despite all of research that proves otherwise. My reason for this is that when the ovum has a positive charge it will be impossible for a positive sperm to enter, yes indeed, it is as if the ovum must suck in the male sperm like a magnet.

Of course the opposite is also true and then there are those who can't conceive boy children because the positive is missing in the effeminate male because of a gender identity complex.

Veil of Fire

But if you're right, all lesbians would have a "male" gender identity.

Which is patently false.