Automaton

Actually, the bulk of the responses were made before he revealed his "true identity". There has been no significant influx of posts after that.

Theli

I have read it now, and it seems to me that you have changed the definition of god by extracting a part of it (omnipresence), and then decided that it is sufficient to amount to the title "god".

I have a few questions.
Were you reffering to the christian god, or are you reffering to gods in general?
Where did you find this definition of "god"?

I find this definition REALLY skinny, aswell as biased (it correlates to christian doctrine).
It would be like defining a CD as "round". It's not false, but it IS incomplete.
By saying that natural laws are omnipresent you must assume that our universe is all there is.
And also, how can something create itself?

Liquidrage

Hmm. Sorry then.

When I went to bed last night it was still "Tin Tin" and it had about 15 posts total.
I wake up and it's Treb and on page 4.
So it seemed like it.

I'll take your word for it. My bad.

Divide et Impera

On October 3rd 1998, I stayed up until 4 in the morning sniffing Ritalin (an amphetamine). I went to sleep for two hours and woke up relatively sober for work (though there were still moderate effects apparent like "lack of fatigue after two hours sleep" and "increased mood"). The manager sent me outback to inventory the trailer; I started to inventory the trailer until I found a calendar rack, to go with the calendars for 1999 which had just arrived. It was dusty, and I figured I had come across a good reason to take a good 20 minute break outside in the day, to dust it off.

I remember being especially aware of the nature around me. It was sunny, and about 70 degrees, with a wind of about 15 mph, though it seemed like it was going to rain shortly. I remember being very happy it was such a beautiful day (which is quite rare for me -- probably had a bit to do with the ritalin). At some point I began thinking of my ex-girlfriend, and how much I loved her (it was a mix of thought and emotion, leaning a bit more heavily toward the emotional side -- not just rational thought).

During this I lost all sense of outside awareness -- I could see nothing other then a pinkish haze as if someone was pointing a flashlight at me with my eyes closed -- though I believe they were open; I lost all sense of time; I could feel my body but only very slightly. My complete attention went to something else, at the time I believed it was actual sentient presense, but I can not be sure. I was hit with literally dozens of huge waves of emotion, it was so bittersweet, that I could not help but cry tears of joy and pain at the same time (I've cried maybe a dozen times previous to this in my life -- I am not an emotional person). I felt linked to everything.

At some point I felt as if something was comforting me, and perhaps even slightly amused that I had become so emotional -- it's impossible to describe but I came away thinking there were two of them.

I felt absolute unity with all of nature, like I was a vital, and very valuable part of it. I felt ALIVE! I can never do this justice, but to put a certain way -- no matter what happens in my life I will never feel 1% that ALIVE again.

When I came out of it I found myself crying, while sitting on some milk crates. Instantly I feared for my sanity. Three thoughts kept running through my head repeatedly: "What the fuck was that?! Am I insane? How long was I out for?"

I wiped my face, went to look at the clock -- I figured that I must have been out for probably more then a minute or two but less then 20. After about 30 minutes with no more losing touch with external reality, I figured my sanity was intact.

I told my manager I was sick and had to go home, I simply could not be at work, I had to go home and piece it together. As I was driving home, I started crying again, and I shit you not, the very first rain drop hit my windshield as I started crying, I was then hit with a profound sense of deja vu. Perhaps it was coincidence, but I did not feel like it; it felt entirely intentional. I felt hopelessly linked to nature for about two weeks after that -- I loved the wind, the sun, the moon, stars, smiling children, music -- everything. Everything natural seemed to be impossibly important for those two weeks. It was all a part of the unity. It was life!

After the passing of the weeks it faded; the realities of life (work, bills, problems with the girlfriend) set back in, and I lost it -- what I mean to say is I can not feel that "connection"(if you will) any longer.

As to what it was -- for awhile, I threw the old "goddidit" on it, as I was sort of a deist before I came to II. After being here awhile I eventually became an agnostic which I remain to this day.

I don't know what it was, but it was and will remain the most profound experiance of my life. My best guess is that I instantly went from total awareness, to an extremelly deep meditation -- how, I do not know. There was an article in newsweek about "Why god won't go away". I read it and found my experiance very similiar to the scientist's experiance, who later conducted tests on buddhists and nuns in deep meditation.

I have tried to meditate so I can try to feel that way again, but I can't seem to get down there -- it seems to me, that (calming) emotion is a vital ingrediant of meditation and rational thought is a block (or at least prevention of calm).

If this story sounds familiar to some of the old school heads: yes I am "Eagles", I was also "Slave to Society", and "Stop that Train".

It was life. But who knows, because I don't.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: 1Time ]</p>

Aquila ka Hecate

WTF???

I go shopping and come back to find that Tin Tin has morphed back into TV, has substantially altered his original premise (I find this astoundingly rude, btw) and someone called 1Time is blathering on about cosmic conectedness.

I thought I'd wondered into the funny farm, not the rational halls of II.

Sigh.Someone start making some sense.

Divide et Impera

The ridicule the first time I posted that story of mine, was much more severe then that. Try again, perhaps I'm a bit hardened to it...

Aquila ka Hecate

1Time,

I'm not ridiculing you: I honestly don't know what relevance that story has to the subject in hand.

Oh well, seems like everyone's at church.

Totalitarianist

I find this definition REALLY skinny, aswell as biased (it correlates to christian doctrine).

I agree. That is exactly why I changed the definition.

God:--

-all-powerful
-all-present
-the Creator

These traits coincide with the widely used (and often oriental) definition of "God". I am no longer using the Christian definition.

The universe had to of been created by some sort constellation of laws and principles. I believe these laws, some call them the laws of physics, I call them God, were what caused the universe. The first causer. The Creator.

Someone tells me "but the universe could not of created itself!", but I ask for an alternative.

I'm not asking what created the universe, I'm asking what set it in motion. The first cause theory does not infer a creator, but infers a fist causer. Whether the universe was created or not, what caused the first movement? The "what" does not matter. The very fact that, logically, motion had to be set by some sort of causer, proves the fallacy of both atheism and theism. It's logically impossible to not have a first causer! and this includes the causer of the first causer! and the causer of the next causer, right up to old man infinite. So please, don't criticise Trebaxian Pantheism with "the universe did not created itself", as this applies to both atheism and theism as well. That particular matter cannot be debated over, until we can define "the first causer", which cannot happen if there is no "first causer", which is logically ludicrous. If you want to be rational, be an agnostic or a weak atheist.

I am an agnostic. Yet, I believe in all those universal axioms, which I'm sure you don't deny.

I just take this one step further. I call it "God". The laws of physics are synonymous with one of the many definitions "God".

That's all I'm saying. It is unrefutable, and undeniable.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Trebaxian Vir ]</p>

excreationist

I don't know if the universe is all-powerful though... I mean it seems to act in highly predictable ways - as if it is constrained rather than free. Quantum physics seems to have some randomness in it, but that seems to follow rules as well. Perhaps it could be possible for a big quantum fluctuation to create a human out of empty space by chance... but it is unlikely that would happen within the next few billion years. If "God" (as the universe) had some intelligence then it could makes complex things like humans appear and disappear quite often. So I don't think the pantheistic God really is all-powerful.

Totalitarianist

By all powerful, I mean universal. The forces are universal, are they not?