Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 03-14-2003, 05:26 AM

Well until you can show me where it says that in the original Hebrew Bible, its an irrelevant argument.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-14-2003, 03:53 PM

...*bump* for spurly - I know we have a lot of topics going at the moment but I wanted to make sure you didn't forget my questions on this one.... see my post 6th down on page 2.

Gregg · 03-14-2003, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Well until you can show me where it says that in the original Hebrew Bible, its an irrelevant argument.

I didn't feel like researching this earlier, but I felt like it just now. It took just a few minutes to locate an article that demonstrates how the Bible AS WE HAVE IT TODAY talks about other gods as if they were real, and not merely imaginary beings residing in graven images. True, in many places in the Bible we are told that Yahweh is the "only" god, but in other places--including Exodus 12:12--it's quite apparent that whoever was writing believed that other gods existed. Yahweh couldn't "execute judgment on all the gods of Egypt" if they didn't exist.

You can find the complete article here: http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../3yahwe91.html

Here's some excerpts:

Quote:

Many Bible fundamentalists believe that while the nations around them wallowed in the mire of polytheism the Hebrews practiced a strict monotheistic religion. Their insight into the nature of the one true God Yahweh had resulted, of course, from the personal relationships that Abraham and the other Hebrew patriarchs had experienced with Yahweh, who had routinely revealed himself to them in dreams, apparitions, and other manifestations. It makes good sermon material, but there's just one thing wrong with it. It isn't true.
The early Hebrews believed in polytheism as much as the nations around them. They thought of Chemosh, Molech, Milcom, Baal, Dagon, and the other pagan gods as deities who were just as real as their own god Yahweh. They just thought that Yahweh was greater and mightier than the others, a sort of supergod or, in other words, the God of gods (Josh. 22:22). Monotheism or the belief that Yahweh was the only God was a late development in Jewish theology.

The evidence for this is too clear to dispute. There is, first of all, the peculiar fact that the Hebrews, when not referring to him by his personal name Yahweh, generally used a plural word (elohim) to designate their god. Literally, it meant gods rather than god. In the original Hebrew, therefore, Genesis 1:1 is actually saying, "In the beginning gods created the heavens and the earth." It seems strange that a people with a clear concept of monotheism, as bibliolaters claim that the Hebrews had, would have used a plural word in referring to the one and only true god. It would be somewhat like an English writer using men to refer to a man.

Quote:

There are many passages in the Old Testament that indicate belief that the pagan deities were real gods. Jephthah said in his message to the king of the Ammonites during a dispute over territory the Israelites had taken on their way out of Egypt, "Will you not possess that which Chemosh your elohim gives you to possess? So whomever Yahweh our Elohim has dispossessed from before us, them will we possess" (Judges 11:24, BB). Since there were no capital letters in Hebrew to show the distinction the translators arbitrarily made in capitalizing elohim as it referred to Yahweh, it is obvious that Jephthah considered Chemosh of the Ammonites to be elohim in the same sense that Yahweh was the elohim of Israel. He was contending that Yahweh, his elohim, had given the Israelites certain territories just as Chemosh, the elohim of the Ammonites, had given them certain lands and that the two nations should therefore be content with the arrangements of their respective gods. Furthermore, we have to wonder at this point if Jephthah intended elohim as a "plural of dignity" when he applied it to the singular deity Chemosh. If not, why not? If it expressed dignity and respect when applied to Yahweh, then why would it not mean the same when applied to another deity? So if there is any merit at all to the plural-of- dignity argument, we have in this passage a clear indication that Chemosh was considered a real god who deserved respect.

That pagan gods should indeed be respected was often indicated in the Old Testament. Exodus 22:28 says, "Thou shalt not revile the gods (ha-elohim), nor curse the ruler of thy people" (KJV). Despite the inclusion of the article ha, as shown in the parentheses, most translations have tried to hide the fact that gods in general were probably intended by rendering ha-elohim God (singular) with a capital "G" and no article. Deliberate deceptions of translation like this have kept English readers from seeing many things that would be damaging to traditional Judeo-Christian doctrines, in this case an apparent polytheistic concept in early Hebrew history.

Gregg

Magus55 · 03-14-2003, 08:00 PM

In exodus 12:12, what makes you think he isn't reffering to gods as idols? For example, the Egyptians worshipped the sun as though it was a god. One of God's plagues was darkness in which he got rid of their "god". God wasn't refferring to other "gods" in the sense of spiritual beings like him, he was referring to those idols and material things to which the egyptians worshipped - so he passed judgement on their "idols", meaning destroyed them.

The Egyptians were polytheistic, which is why references to gods in the Bible is referring to the things they worshipped. Yes some of the Jews made idols in the desert, but they got yelled at for it.
Judaism however, has never been polytheistic.

03-15-2003, 05:46 AM

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."
Exodus 10:1-2

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon. 3 Pharaoh will think, 'The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.' 4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD ." So the Israelites did this.
Exodus 14:1-4

17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18 The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen."
Exodus 14:17-18

You see, the purpose of all the death and destruction Yahweh deals out is to win glory for himself and to show everyone how much of a badass he is. These are the actions of a deeply insecure bully, not an all-knowing and loving deity.

Asha'man · 03-15-2003, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Well until you can show me where it says that in the original Hebrew Bible, its an irrelevant argument.

I can�t believe you would say this. I can�t imagine a more close-minded attitude. Are you really here to talk with us, or just spew nonsense?

The argument is perfectly relevant to the discussion we are having. Exodus describes, in perfectly clear language, a god who appears to be a sociopathic killer. The story describes someone who is working against himself, with the net outcome being unnecessary death and suffering.

Now, either that description is accurate, or it is not. I�m suggesting that it is not an accurate description, and offering an explanation as to why it came to be inaccurate.

Do you have a better explanation? Or do you continue to believe that description is accurate? Do you really want to accept a God that is personally responsible for unnecessary death and suffering?

03-15-2003, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
God wasn't refferring to other "gods" in the sense of spiritual beings like him, he was referring to those idols and material things to which the egyptians worshipped - so he passed judgement on their "idols", meaning destroyed them.

The Egyptians were polytheistic, which is why references to gods in the Bible is referring to the things they worshipped. Yes some of the Jews made idols in the desert, but they got yelled at for it.
Judaism however, has never been polytheistic.

Completely unsupported assertions that have no basis in anything other than your desperate desire to cling on to your preconceived belief system.

Gregg · 03-15-2003, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
In exodus 12:12, what makes you think he isn't reffering to gods as idols? For example, the Egyptians worshipped the sun as though it was a god. One of God's plagues was darkness in which he got rid of their "god". God wasn't refferring to other "gods" in the sense of spiritual beings like him, he was referring to those idols and material things to which the egyptians worshipped - so he passed judgement on their "idols", meaning destroyed them.

The Egyptians were polytheistic, which is why references to gods in the Bible is referring to the things they worshipped. Yes some of the Jews made idols in the desert, but they got yelled at for it.
Judaism however, has never been polytheistic.

I can only suggest that you read the entire article I posted. Also, if you move up one level from the article, you'll find a rebuttal to it. The rebuttal is followed by a reply from the author of the first article. It's all very interesting reading.

Gregg

03-15-2003, 06:13 AM

BTW, I'm would be very curious to know from you, Magus55 (or any other theist), where the Egyptian "wise men" and magicians derived the power to duplicate some of Moses's miracles with.

Gregg · 03-15-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cthulhu
BTW, I'm would be very curious to know from you, Magus55 (or any other theist), where the Egyptian "wise men" and magicians derived the power to duplicate some of Moses's miracles with.

From Cthulhu and the Old Ones!

Actually, Cth, you shouldn't ask an easy question like that. The power came from Satan, of course!

Gregg

03-14-2003, 03:53 PM	#42
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Just a.... ...bump for spurly - I know we have a lot of topics going at the moment but I wanted to make sure you didn't forget my questions on this one.... see my post 6th down on page 2.

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03-14-2003, 05:26 AM	#41
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Well until you can show me where it says that in the original Hebrew Bible, its an irrelevant argument.

03-14-2003, 08:00 PM	#44
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	In exodus 12:12, what makes you think he isn't reffering to gods as idols? For example, the Egyptians worshipped the sun as though it was a god. One of God's plagues was darkness in which he got rid of their "god". God wasn't refferring to other "gods" in the sense of spiritual beings like him, he was referring to those idols and material things to which the egyptians worshipped - so he passed judgement on their "idols", meaning destroyed them. The Egyptians were polytheistic, which is why references to gods in the Bible is referring to the things they worshipped. Yes some of the Jews made idols in the desert, but they got yelled at for it. Judaism however, has never been polytheistic.

03-15-2003, 05:46 AM	#45
Cthulhu Guest Posts: n/a	1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD." Exodus 10:1-2 1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon. 3 Pharaoh will think, 'The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.' 4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD ." So the Israelites did this. Exodus 14:1-4 17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18 The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen." Exodus 14:17-18 You see, the purpose of all the death and destruction Yahweh deals out is to win glory for himself and to show everyone how much of a badass he is. These are the actions of a deeply insecure bully, not an all-knowing and loving deity.

03-15-2003, 06:13 AM	#49
Cthulhu Guest Posts: n/a	BTW, I'm would be very curious to know from you, Magus55 (or any other theist), where the Egyptian "wise men" and magicians derived the power to duplicate some of Moses's miracles with.

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