Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rational BAC · 07-13-2003, 07:58 PM

I will ask once and only once.

Where is the evidence for any historical figure of 2000 plus years ago? Why could they not all be myths?

Maybe we should just start history 500 years ago and just consider anything older to be balderdash. Not that 500 years ago really means anything, but got to start somewhere.

I admit that it would make things much easier for history students.

Magus55 · 07-13-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Now I am a little confused. Magus says the Gospels were written about 70 AD--

--------or about 10 years after the death of Paul. And that would put the Bible quote as pretty close to contemporary-------equals that there were many of Jesus's generation still alive.

Others say the 4 Gospels were written in the early part of the 2nd century. Which would make almost all of Jesus's contemporaries quite dead. (Except for possibly one or two)

Who is correct in this?

Inquiring minds want to know. It is kind of important.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who told you the Bible was written in the 2nd Century? The last book was Revelation, which is most commonly accepted to have been written around the 90's AD.

Here are 2 looks showing the dates of the NT:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/gospels_written.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/written_after.htm

//riot of disorder:: · 07-13-2003, 08:25 PM

Jesus isn't coming again.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/comingagain.html

Read.Learn.

Magus55 · 07-13-2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
To repeat. The 4 Gospels were written down in the early part of the 2nd century. Obviously no one took them literally at any time in history as far as "this generation will not pass away". Since that generation had already passed away.
To repeat THAT MAKES ALL THE CLAIMS OF JESUS RETURN DURING THAT GENERATION LIES. If they were made before the generation had passed away they are FALSE PROPHECIES. If they were made after the generation had died then they are LIES that are being falsely presented as prophecies.
It seems the only ones who do take that literally are atheists.
Because your silly magic book lies more than a dozen times about this "second coming." Bald-faced lies, blatant lies, obvious lies, provable lies. You aren't taking it literally because you know they are lies and you are in denial. All you can do is claim that it doesn't say what it does say over and over again.

-------

And finally, other verses in Mat 24 speak of these end times centered around Israel becoming a nation. Israel didn't become a nation until 1947, so how on Earth could Jesus have been talking in present tense, to that generation, when Israel didn't exist yet?
When Jesus was talking Israel had not been destroyed. That happened long after he croaked. The KINGDOM of Israel has never and will never return. If he says " This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" then he really can't make it any clearer. He didn't say a thousand years or two thousand he said "THIS generation." In Mark it's spelled out even more exactly-- Mk.9:1 "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." He's talking about the actual people in his audience, standing there as he speaks right in front of him.
No matter how you look at it, it is impossible for Mark 24:34 to be talking about any other generation. No matter how you look at it, it is impossible for Mark 24:34 to be anything but a damned lie.
He was referring to the generation that sees Israel flourish as a nation, and sees the end times described in previous verses. He is referring to the Israel of Jesus' generation. A generation long dead having never seen a rapture.

Don't feel bad, John Frum never returned either

Actually, if we read further, we can see what Jesus was talking about.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

This verse is describing Jesus' second coming, in line with Revelation.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This verse here is the beginning of Jesus' transifiguration ( some theologians say this should actually be the first verse in chapter 17, but may have been put in 16 through translation).

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Here is Jesus' actual transfiguration. The Kingdom of God did come in Jesus. This event on the mountain was when God the Father spoke out of the clouds to the disciples and Jesus transformed from a mortal human, back to immortality. At this point, He is no longer a mere human, below the angels - He is back at His rightful place, at the right hand of God the Father. This event ushered in the new Kingdom of Christ, or the Age of Grace. At this point, Jesus fulfilled His purpose on Earth, and God the Father spoke to the disciples, telling them to spread the message that Jesus taught.

The transifiguration was 6 days after Jesus told the Apostles they wouldn't die, till the kingdom of God came in its glory. And it did, through Jesus. God's glory shined on Jesus, and returned Him to immortality - Holy and Righteous.

But as Jesus said, He will come again with the Angels, and the authority of God the Father, to judge man and reward them for their works. Here is the future reference to revelation.

Now, this reference can't be referring to during the Apostles lives, because Jesus said He would judge the entire world, and reward everyone for their works - not just the Apostles. If Jesus fulfilled revelation in the 1st Century, we wouldn't be here right now.
Also, the end times signs Jesus describes would have been recorded had they happened 2000 years ago.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Do you seriously think turmoil and destruction plagued the Earth more so than any other event, including the Global flood and hitler/Stalin's reigns, in the first century?

Any reports of the moon darkening or the stars falling from the sky?

None of that happened in the 1st Century because Jesus wasn't referring to that generation.

Rhaedas · 07-13-2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

None of that happened in the 1st Century because Jesus wasn't referring to that generation.

Al the versions I've read, if you read in context, he was referring to the apostles. He was directly answering their question. Spin it however you want.

Doesn't really matter which generation he was referring to anyway. No prophesies, biblical or other, have ever come true. Tie whatever interpretations and coincidences you want together, any prophesy that has claimed being fulfilled tends to be vague enough to twist around the circumstances. We humans crave patterns and matchs, so tend to fall for such things illogically.

Of course you can claim that Jesus is god, so therefore he must be right...but that's the big assumption you'd have to make to imply the generation phrase has to be fulfilled.

winstonjen · 07-13-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Any reports of the moon darkening or the stars falling from the sky?

None of that happened in the 1st Century because Jesus wasn't referring to that generation.

Or he could have just been plain lying.

NonHomogenized · 07-13-2003, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The Kingdom of God did come in Jesus.

Well, gee, I hope jesus was using birth control, then. We wouldn't want little jesuses running around all over the place

Biff the unclean · 07-13-2003, 10:08 PM

Why does anyone want to completely throw out the historical existance of Jesus? Sounds a little biased to me.

To say that it is being "thrown out" is actually the biased part. There really isn't anything to throw out. We don't have an historic personage to pin the Jesus story on. Not only don't we have an actual Jesus of Nazareth we don't have anybody else from the period who could have been Jesus. We don't even have Nazareth.

At exactly the same time in Rome was a guy called Apollonius of Tyana. He is historical. He performed exactly the same healing miracles that Jesus did, at the same time Jesus was supposed to be doing them (although he claimed that they weren't miracles) He brought the worship of the god Christna to Rome around the time of Claudius. But he wrote books, fragments of which survive. He had possessions some of which, like his bust, are still in museums (in Italy) The Romans had records of him. People wrote to him and he wrote back. People wrote to one another about him. The same as every one else, he left a trail. People saw him and noted the fact.
Jesus didn't have that. There were at least half a dozen would be Messiahs in Israel in the 50 years around Jesus, the Romans kept elaborate records for all of them. They never mention Jesus. The Jews never mention Jesus. The Palestinians in the area never mention Jesus.
There is no "historic" Jesus for the simple fact that no one noticed him and he left nothing behind. This would tend to indicate that nobody named Jesus or anything else was going around doing the same healing miracles that got Apollonius so much press. Nor were they claiming to be the Messiah because the Romans were very interested in such claims.
When you take this zero evidence and add to it the negative evidence that the episodes of the life of Jesus is the same as the stories of Mithra and Dionysus it gets very suspicious.
Was there an historic Jesus who was somehow not recorded by history? We have no idea. But we can't honestly claim there was because we have no way of knowing.

Biff the unclean · 07-13-2003, 10:29 PM

Any reports of the moon darkening or the stars falling from the sky?

None of that happened in the 1st Century because Jesus wasn't referring to that generation.

This shows how incredibly biased you are. More than a dozen times it says-Jesus says-that it will happen in that very generation. That people standing right there listening would still be alive.

But it didn't happen, it was a fake.

You know it didn't happen. Even though it says again and again and again that it would you claim it doesn't say that. Then you have the nerve to claim that it can't really say what it says because it didn't happen. The only reason you are claiming that the bible doesn't say what it clearly repeats more than a dozen times is because the bible is wrong.

And you know that it's wrong or you wouldn't go so far out of your way to distort what it so plainly says. Your duplicity is transparent

07-14-2003, 03:01 AM

Magus:
Please will you answer the question I asked you on page 2 of this thread! It was with reference to one of your biblical quotes.

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07-13-2003, 07:58 PM	#51
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	I will ask once and only once. Where is the evidence for any historical figure of 2000 plus years ago? Why could they not all be myths? Maybe we should just start history 500 years ago and just consider anything older to be balderdash. Not that 500 years ago really means anything, but got to start somewhere. I admit that it would make things much easier for history students.

07-13-2003, 08:25 PM	#53
//riot of disorder:: Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 184	Jesus isn't coming again. http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/comingagain.html Read.Learn.

07-13-2003, 10:08 PM	#58
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Why does anyone want to completely throw out the historical existance of Jesus? Sounds a little biased to me. To say that it is being "thrown out" is actually the biased part. There really isn't anything to throw out. We don't have an historic personage to pin the Jesus story on. Not only don't we have an actual Jesus of Nazareth we don't have anybody else from the period who could have been Jesus. We don't even have Nazareth. At exactly the same time in Rome was a guy called Apollonius of Tyana. He is historical. He performed exactly the same healing miracles that Jesus did, at the same time Jesus was supposed to be doing them (although he claimed that they weren't miracles) He brought the worship of the god Christna to Rome around the time of Claudius. But he wrote books, fragments of which survive. He had possessions some of which, like his bust, are still in museums (in Italy) The Romans had records of him. People wrote to him and he wrote back. People wrote to one another about him. The same as every one else, he left a trail. People saw him and noted the fact. Jesus didn't have that. There were at least half a dozen would be Messiahs in Israel in the 50 years around Jesus, the Romans kept elaborate records for all of them. They never mention Jesus. The Jews never mention Jesus. The Palestinians in the area never mention Jesus. There is no "historic" Jesus for the simple fact that no one noticed him and he left nothing behind. This would tend to indicate that nobody named Jesus or anything else was going around doing the same healing miracles that got Apollonius so much press. Nor were they claiming to be the Messiah because the Romans were very interested in such claims. When you take this zero evidence and add to it the negative evidence that the episodes of the life of Jesus is the same as the stories of Mithra and Dionysus it gets very suspicious. Was there an historic Jesus who was somehow not recorded by history? We have no idea. But we can't honestly claim there was because we have no way of knowing.

07-13-2003, 10:29 PM	#59
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Any reports of the moon darkening or the stars falling from the sky? None of that happened in the 1st Century because Jesus wasn't referring to that generation. This shows how incredibly biased you are. More than a dozen times it says-Jesus says-that it will happen in that very generation. That people standing right there listening would still be alive. But it didn't happen, it was a fake. You know it didn't happen. Even though it says again and again and again that it would you claim it doesn't say that. Then you have the nerve to claim that it can't really say what it says because it didn't happen. The only reason you are claiming that the bible doesn't say what it clearly repeats more than a dozen times is because the bible is wrong. And you know that it's wrong or you wouldn't go so far out of your way to distort what it so plainly says. Your duplicity is transparent

07-14-2003, 03:01 AM	#60
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	Magus: Please will you answer the question I asked you on page 2 of this thread! It was with reference to one of your biblical quotes.

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