Paul2

Not a damn thing. The god of the bible is way to illogical. God himself could come down here, and say "I know it's logically impossible for me to exist, but you need to believe me anyway." Then he could turn me into a newt or something, and i'd still say "bull shit!" Why does god have to be logical for me to believe? That's how things are in reality. why? ask god, he (apparently) made it that way.

MrDarwin

Wiggle wiggle! Since God gave the commandments, doesn't it make sense that he/she/it can overrule them? Because one thing that Christians have emphasized over and over is that sin is defined as disobedience to God.

Innocent? Radorth, you've already told us that nobody is innocent, not even a newborn baby. We are all deserving of death and damnation. So if God somehow convinced you that these people weren't innocent, you would do it? Maybe God knows something you don't. Maybe going through with it would avert an even greater catastrophe. Maybe your doing this plays some critical role in God's plan.

So one can disobey God in good conscience, and get away with it? That sometimes it's okay to break the rules without God's blessing or even permission? Interesting concept--I'm sure it brings you great comfort.

You seem to like baiting, since you keep coming back.

But Abraham didn't know that. As far as he knew, he was expected to go through with it--and in fact he was going to go through with it, until God stopped him. So how is it so different from the above example of flying a plane into a building full of people? What it boils down to is, how can you be so sure God wouldn't test you in this way, given his/her/its track record? But the short answer is apparently that yes, you would disobey God when push came to shove--which I admit I find somewhat comforting.

BadBadBad

That's all you did. I specifically asked if God manifested himself to you and his nature was substantially as the Bible says, would you fear and obey him or not? God's nature as described in the OT stories is substantially as I presented to you in my hypothetical case. You answered:

Whoops! Thou shalt not kill is a pretty clear commandment. If this hypothetical God meeting is substantially as the Bible says, it's highly likely that this Bible God is going to want you to kill somebody. Unfortunately, the ignorant writers of the OT must have forgotten the importance of thou shalt not kill. They didn't let that commandment limit what their story book God asked the other characters to do. It didn't limit what their story book characters did in response to God's murderous requests. No I think your stuck with God asking you to murder just like it says in the OT. Who are you to say no to God?


Who are you to limit what God can and can not do? Besides, my hypothetical doesn't suggest you kill innocent people. The hypothetical describes killing muslims. Muslims worship false Gods. I don't think the OT will support any assertions that they are any more innocent than any of the other thousands of people murdered at the hand or command of the story book God.


No, now wait a minute. You wouldn't do it? Your judgement as to the innocence of people who worship false gods is, what, better than almighty God's judgement? Your morality is, what, the true definition of morality? You want to limit the Almighty God to the bounds of your conscience?

"18:23
And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

18:24
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

18:25
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis

OK, I see you're not the only one to question God's judgement, but read on in Genesis.

18:32
And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

Alright, now what happens?

19:24
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

19:25
And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

So we have to assume based upon the Bible that all that God murdered were not innocent. So at some point God decided that all down to the last ten souls were not righteous. What basis would Abraham have had to question that? What basis would you have for questioning God's judgement?

No if you believe in God, and you believe in the Bible, I think you're going to have to accept my hypothetical as valid and say yes to God. At least that position would be consistent. Unfortunately, that would make you the same as the fundamentalist Islamic murderers that took my hypothetical as reality.


You are just baiting us and avoiding the issues we have raised anyway.

Most of our questions remain unanswered.

Bill Snedden

Of course! It all makes perfect sense! The Bible is one long, convoluted koan! Why didn't I realize it before??



Regards,

Bill Snedden

Jayjay

So if someone's conscience says that it's okay to be gay, nothing wrong with abortions, or that sex before marriage is harmless fun, then surely God would not tell that person to do something against his conscience? Nah, christians will say "that's not conscience, that's the your sinful nature or the devil tempting you!". So how do we know that if someone doesn't want to obey God by flying a plane into a building, his common sense is not the devil in him talking in that case? How do we tell which impulses people have are motivated by supposedly God-given and universal "conscience", and which impulses are sinful and depraved?

Of course, christians don't have a sensible answer to this question either, just some bantering about finding out after we die, or that we need to converse with the spirit world that is invisible to the unbelievers. Yeah right.

Jayjay

It just occurred to me, that what radorth was originally asking has not sparked many relevant responses because we have no clue what kind of answers he is looking for... so I'll reverse the challenge, and ask Radorth to say what he would do if Hank from Kissing Hank's Ass parable were true. Lots of atheists here consider christianity to be just as stupid as Hank's ass-kissing cult, so the comparison is justified.

Here's the list of rules that Hank dictated to Karl:
So, if we assume that this list was proven true, would it make you, Radorth, fear and respect Hank? Would it change your character in any way? Would you kiss his ass and start obeying the rules?

Bumble Bee Tuna

well, Radorth, in regards to your original post:

1. If a God existed as described in the Bible, I don't know what I would do. God's biblical nature is contradictory, IMO, so I don't understand how his existence could be possible, or which sides of the contradictions would be true and which would be false.

Assuming, though, that you mean "A powerful God who sends you to hell if you do not willingly accept submitting your will to him, but brings you to heaven if you do", I can explain, though even the concept of heaven seems contradictory to me.


Yes, it would change my opinion. I would prefer a submissive life in Heaven to a "free" life of damnation. I don't think people in Hell are free anyway, so it's really a choice between being a prisoner and happy for eternity or being a prisoner and tortured for eternity.

It would be much better if God provided evidence for himself. You claim that people would still not believe. So why shouldn't God provide evidence? The standard apologetic is that it removes free will, but if people would still not believe it obviously does not remove free will.

-B

Infidelettante

Here's what he could do. All the things he would have been doing if he hadn't gone back to heaven after the resurrection. The Prince of Peace would stop the coming war with Iraq. He would stop terrorism and the bloodshed that has gripped this world for two thousand years since he left. He would heal those with AIDS and cancer and every disease. He could raise my Dad from the dead. I've really missed him the last twenty five years. You want us to believe your God came to Earth as a man. I grant you that. You want us to believe he died and rose from the dead. OK, I give you that. Then what did he do? He f::king left is what he did! Like there was nothing for him to do? Like his work here was over? I dont' think so Sparky. Millions have died horrible, painful deaths the last 2000 years. I know, I've seen it. Wars, famine, disease, murder, and you ask what he could do? I tell you what he could do that would get me back. He could live up to the talk. That's all he has to. Be what you say he is. Protect the children, Jesus. Stop the wars, Jesus. Heal the sick, Jesus. Stop the death and suffering, Jesus. Save the planet, Jesus. You can take all your evidence and apologetics and stuff it. Your problem is that your god is a runaway. gone. left. not here. And we need him now! You want me to believe? Bring him to the homeless shelters. Bring him to the childrens hospitals. Bring him to the prisons.
Bring him the next time the guy next door hits his wife. Bring him. Bring him. Bring him. But you can't can you? You can't and yet you ask us to believe in you and him. Now do you have some idea why I don't belive?

JT

[edit] To the mods. This got a little out of hand and I am sorry. Kill it if you need to. JT

Radorth

I can't answer all these. I have answered them before anyway, some many times, except this one- a fair question.

1. It's remotely possible he would test me in that way, asking me to kill my child, but only if I had the relationship which he had with Abraham, who was a personal friend, and to whom he audibly spoke. Nevertheless, he never asks Christians to do more than they can bear, or which is truly offensive to their conscience (Romans 14), and he certainly wouldn't require a burnt offering. Those days are long gone.

2. Christians are under a New Covenant, not of laws and rules and works, but of faith. Thus the sacrifices asked for in the OT are no longer needful.

Rad

winstonjen

"god" needs the burnt offering of a marijuana joint before he'll talk to you or anyone.