Amie

Not true and it does nothing of the sort.
factual? no I think not Ronin.
People in prayer are not pretending Ronin. You believe its nonsense however just because someone prays that does not make them dishonest or lacking integrity in any way.
How does that make them dishonest? If they believe prayer is working for them, thats not dishonest, they are not intentionally trying to deceive anyone. They honestly believe God answers prayers. you don't but many do.

Ronin

Is so...yeah huh.

Couldn't have said that better myself!! :notworthy

They're pretending, Amie.

I've already explained how this is limiting to the full potentiality of honest action and purpose.

Don't worry, it's not the crime of the century and I'm sure we'll have rabbit's feet around for quite awhile longer.

Again, nothing personal, but talking to a genie in a lamp for goodies is dishonest and further claiming that the genie exists lacks integrity.

Actively working toward a beneficial goal in life is far more productive and leads to a removal of superstitious rituals in favor of a true passion for life found in the beauty of reality in plain view.

As an added perk ~ one is less likely to be subjected to the fraud and theft perpetuated upon the gullible by the scoundrels who lurk within the mindset of the religious.

SRB

Amie:
People in prayer are not pretending Ronin. You believe its nonsense however just because someone prays that does not make them dishonest or lacking integrity in any way.
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Let's be clear about this. According to you, people who pray do not really believe it works. That is why they are dishonest in claiming it does work (they are lying about what they really believe). Is this summary of your position correct?

SRB

Ronin

Well, "They're pretending, Amie" is quite a bit more clearer than your summation, SRB

However, Amie said it best herself earlier in the thread ~

I offer you motive, SRB, for the pretense of prayer and how it perpetuates an addle brained dishonesty among the masses.

BTW ~ very nice to meet you

Harpy

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I think that people can accomplish many great things with or without prayers but some people just lack confidence in themselves and I think prayer can be very beneficial in helping under those circumstances...
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The problem with this scenario is that when these people do accomplish something they thank their imaginary mate rather that congratulating themselves and building up their own self esteem.

To some religion is a crutch to lean their disabled minds on.

philechat

There are studies on praying which lead to certain mystical experiences which is similar to, say, the effect of meditation, music, or magnetic stimulation. Prayer "works" in the way that it changes the psychological state of an individual. To imagine anything other than it be a change of subjective experience is superfluous.

When one meditates and thinks nothing of God, one still "gets" a similar experience as of those who pray to specific gods. Therefore the ability of mystical experiences in people of all religions (including atheists).

Unless the Christians among us want to call the prayers of their religion somehow "superior" to the other activities that lead to similar experiences.

Ronin

Oh, I get that experience while, say, dropping a WMD in the commode...or...talking to Amos, even.

My impression was that this OP was about petitioning Zeus for a fantabulous harvest.

Clutch

Diana, maybe this will help. The notion of necessity represented by "must" or "has to" is understood in terms of whether things could be or could have been otherwise. So a statement like "Necessarily Ted is a bachelor" is almost certainly false, since Ted might have married had things turned out differently, and might yet marry, at that.

Hence it's important to strictly distinguish between:

A) Necessarily, if Ted is an unmarried male, then Ted is a bachelor.

B) If Ted is an unmarried male, then necessarily Ted is a bachelor.

(A) is correct, since it's a kind of definition of the term "bachelor". In the normal run of events, we say things like (B) all the time without meaning to say anything metaphysically absurd. But utterances like (B) are charitably interpreted as expressing something like (A). Because if we took (B) literally, we could infer that Ted is necessarily a bachelor from the mere fact that he is a bachelor.

i -- (B) If Ted is an unmarried male, then necessarily Ted is a bachelor.
ii -- Ted, as it happens, is an unmarried male.
Therefore,
ii -- Necessarily Ted is a bachelor.

Which is crazy, since Ted could get married tomorrow.

But if we put the correct formulation, (A), in for (i), then we can't derive the absurd conclusion. The consequent of (A) doesn't contain any reference to necessity.

In short, it's a mistake to confuse the necessity of the inference from P to Q with the necessity of Q itself.

Amie

Ronin, Ronin, Ronin
No they are not.
I found some flaws in your thinking and as a fellow human being I feel compelled to show you the errors of your ways. First of all there is no pretending involved. When one prays and believes it works, believes there is power in all that is involved in praying then how on earth is that pretending anything? They are not pretending! People are true to themselves when it comes to personal prayer. I dont think people pray and at the same time believe prayer does not work. You seem to think so but thats entirely forgivable. Flawed but forgivable
I would like to add If someone felt that prayers *really* don't work they just would *not* pray. Prayers are sincere.
prayer does not take away from honesty or action
Ronin people do not pray only to make requests, there are many forms of prayer and none of them makes someone dishonest. Talking to God does not make someone lack integrity. Sorry but dems da breaks...
prayer does not detract from any beneficial goals, nor does it make one's appreciation of the beauty of life any lessened. There is more continuity between time spent in prayer and appreciating life to the fullest than you give credit for Ronin.
oh boy, not necessarily gullible...faithful Ronin. No harm in that. Being faithful itself is harmless. It only potentially becomes dangerous depending on how it is manifested in ones life. Prayer itself is a positive thing.

Amie

Hi SRB
yeah that pretty much sums up his position on this. Whats your take on prayer?