Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 06-04-2003, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Anyway, getting back to the topical questions, how is Christianity a real hindrance to science or intellectual accomplishment? How did it hinder Newton, and if it did not then, why would it hinder anyone now?

Answer: After the Reformation, it did not, it does not, and it will not. And it was no hindrance to men such as Bacon even before the Reformation, who is invariably mentioned in histories of telescope development even though his writings date from the 13th century.

He is also credited with using the "scientific method" before it was called such, and 300 years before any body else did as I recall.

Not one of these men would say Jesus was any hindrance to them. I suspect they would call him an intellectual liberator just as he was a social liberator. But you know more than they do about themselves, right?

Rad

This was the very same Roger Bacon (1214-1292) who was incarcerated from 1278 to 1291, a year before his death? On a charge of "suspected novelties" in his teaching?

This did not hamper him in any way?

Fascinating.

06-04-2003, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
This was the very same Roger Bacon (1214-1292) who was incarcerated from 1278 to 1291, a year before his death? On a charge of "suspected novelties" in his teaching?

Oh dear. Someone else has been on the AD White bottle.

Something a bit more up to date:

Quote:

Roger Bacon has been a popular martyr for science since the nineteenth century. He was a scholastic theologian who was keen to claim Aristotle for the Christian faith. He was not a scientist in any way we would recognise and his ideas are not nearly so revolutionary as they are often painted. In chapter 12 of his book, White writes of Roger �the charges on which St. Bonaventura silenced him, and Jerome of Ascoli imprisoned him, and successive popes kept him in prison for fourteen years, were "dangerous novelties" and suspected sorcery.� This is untrue. As Lindberg says �his imprisonment, if it occurred at all (which I doubt) probably resulted with his sympathies for the radical �poverty� wing of the Franciscans (a wholly theological matter) rather than from any scientific novelties which he may have proposed.� (page 76 David Lindberg �Medieval Science and Its Religious Context� Osiris 10 1995)

Yours

Bede

PS: Celsus, thanks for your reply. I'll be back

lpetrich · 06-04-2003, 06:05 AM

Jack the Bodiless was likely referring to Sir Francis Bacon instead of Roger Bacon.

Sir Francis Bacon had done a lot of writing about scientific method, although his ideas on the subject were somewhat simplistic.

06-04-2003, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
Jack the Bodiless was likely referring to Sir Francis Bacon instead of Roger Bacon.

Er, nope. He was referring to Roger Bacon. He got the dates of Roger Bacon and quoted AD White on Roger Bacon.

B

Jack the Bodiless · 06-04-2003, 06:32 AM

Radorth referred to "Bacon", but mentioned writings from "the thirteenth century".

Therefore I assume that Radorth was citing Roger Bacon as a "great Christian scientist".

But he certainly seems to have been an investigator of natural phenomena and principles (notably in the field of optics), and imprisonment for religious reasons would undoubtedly have hampered his work. Even if he wasn't imprisoned specifically for his "scientific" beliefs.

lpetrich · 06-04-2003, 08:07 AM

One thing to keep in mind -- most people in officially Xtian domains would have had to profess belief in whatever was the official sect in order to have any kind of serious career -- or even to survive.

cuius religio, eius regio

whose religion, his region

as it was said during the Reformation and the resulting Wars of Religion.

The same could be said of other religions and regions, of course; Greco-Roman thinkers were at least nominally Hellenic pagans.

06-04-2003, 08:17 AM

Unless Lpetrich has some evidence that someone we have been talking about was not a Christian, he is simply engaged in a fallacy. Roger Bacon was undoubtably a devout and orthodox Christian. Francis Bacon was also a Christain who thought atheism rather irrational. His comments in his essay On Atheism are a good statement of how belief in the order of the world (and hence natural laws) comes from belief in God.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Radorth · 06-04-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Most of Radorth's science heroes would have to have professed belief in some Xtian sect to get anywhere.

Ah yes. Newton was doubtless denied his books and stretched on a rack until he proclaimed:

The Book of revelation exhibits to us the same peculiarities as Nature- The history of the fall of man, the introduction of moral and physical evil, the prediction of the messiah, the actual advent of our Saviour, His instructions, His miracles, His death, His resurrection and the subsequent propagation of his religion by the unlettered fishermen of Galilee, are each a stumbling block to the wisdom of the world...

Sorry, he could have squeaked in with less than that. In those days, all you had to say was that you were baptised in the favored local church.

Quote:

Why was Galileo a Catholic? Why were Bacon and Newton Anglicans? Could it be a matter of geography?

Yes, partly. It's pretty hard to go to a Catholic church if it's been made an Anglican one. What's your point? That does not mean they did not count Jesus as savior, or read and believe his words, or were insincere.

Yesterday, we were told "hey, a Christian is a Christian."

Today we are assured there are vast differences which, somehow, some way, are relevant to the question here.

Quote:

White writes of Roger �the charges on which St. Bonaventura silenced him, and Jerome of Ascoli imprisoned him, and successive popes kept him in prison for fourteen years, were "dangerous novelties" and suspected sorcery.� This is untrue.

You mean atheists are biased, and tend to find witches where there are none?

Re, Jack:

Quote:

and imprisonment for religious reasons would undoubtedly have hampered his work. Even if he wasn't imprisoned specifically for his "scientific" beliefs.

I take it he had to sit on his thumbs for 14 years, and would have actually made a telescope but for his imprisonment then?

Who knows? He might have discovered the calculus in 1250, right?

Gratuitous assertions, assumptions, guesses and even historical nonsense are still being trotted for the choir here.

Rad

Jack the Bodiless · 06-04-2003, 08:38 AM

Quote:

I take it he had to sit on his thumbs for 14 years, and would have actually made a telescope but for his imprisonment then?

Who knows? He might have discovered the calculus in 1250, right?

Gratuitous assertions, assumptions, guesses and even historical nonsense are still being trotted for the choir here.

Quite possibly, yes. Must I remind you that it was YOU who presented Roger Bacon as a "Christian scientist" in the first place?

And, because the Christian church threw him into a medieval jail for fourteen years, you conveniently assume that he wasn't going to make any more contributions, so it doesn't matter?

Gratuitous assertions, assumptions, guesses and even historical nonsense are indeed still being trotted out here. Not to mention insults to common sense...

Jack the Bodiless · 06-04-2003, 09:06 AM

Is it necessary to remind certain people of the topic of this thread?

Is Christianity a hindrance to science or intellectual accomplishment?

Being imprisoned does indeed have an inhibiting effect. So does burning at the stake, or even house arrest. So does the threat of such things, even if history does not record that a specific individual actually suffered one of these fates.

It doesn't matter if the excuse is "Oh, they were imprisoned/burned/threatened for heresy, so that doesn't count". Yes, it counts.

Nor does it matter if these people were themselves Christians, and nor is it limited to those who strictly followed the modern scientific method at all times.

Giordano Bruno was a free-thinking individual who was murdered by Christians for being just that. Roger Bacon was a promising proto-scientist whose career was curtailed by being imprisoned for purely religious reasons. Galileo was kept under house arrest for... what? Because his sums weren't that convincing? This is an arrestable crime?

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06-04-2003, 06:05 AM	#143
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Jack the Bodiless was likely referring to Sir Francis Bacon instead of Roger Bacon. Sir Francis Bacon had done a lot of writing about scientific method, although his ideas on the subject were somewhat simplistic.

06-04-2003, 06:32 AM	#145
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Radorth referred to "Bacon", but mentioned writings from "the thirteenth century". Therefore I assume that Radorth was citing Roger Bacon as a "great Christian scientist". But he certainly seems to have been an investigator of natural phenomena and principles (notably in the field of optics), and imprisonment for religious reasons would undoubtedly have hampered his work. Even if he wasn't imprisoned specifically for his "scientific" beliefs.

06-04-2003, 08:07 AM	#146
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	One thing to keep in mind -- most people in officially Xtian domains would have had to profess belief in whatever was the official sect in order to have any kind of serious career -- or even to survive. cuius religio, eius regio whose religion, his region as it was said during the Reformation and the resulting Wars of Religion. The same could be said of other religions and regions, of course; Greco-Roman thinkers were at least nominally Hellenic pagans.

06-04-2003, 08:17 AM	#147
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Unless Lpetrich has some evidence that someone we have been talking about was not a Christian, he is simply engaged in a fallacy. Roger Bacon was undoubtably a devout and orthodox Christian. Francis Bacon was also a Christain who thought atheism rather irrational. His comments in his essay On Atheism are a good statement of how belief in the order of the world (and hence natural laws) comes from belief in God. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

06-04-2003, 09:06 AM	#150
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Is it necessary to remind certain people of the topic of this thread? Is Christianity a hindrance to science or intellectual accomplishment? Being imprisoned does indeed have an inhibiting effect. So does burning at the stake, or even house arrest. So does the threat of such things, even if history does not record that a specific individual actually suffered one of these fates. It doesn't matter if the excuse is "Oh, they were imprisoned/burned/threatened for heresy, so that doesn't count". Yes, it counts. Nor does it matter if these people were themselves Christians, and nor is it limited to those who strictly followed the modern scientific method at all times. Giordano Bruno was a free-thinking individual who was murdered by Christians for being just that. Roger Bacon was a promising proto-scientist whose career was curtailed by being imprisoned for purely religious reasons. Galileo was kept under house arrest for... what? Because his sums weren't that convincing? This is an arrestable crime?

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