Marduk

"The Ryan/Pitman book is a fun read -- especially the chapter on "The Diaspora", and I'd be interested in knowing the current status of the work."

I saw them on TV speaking with a archaeologist who was an expert on pottery of the middle east, he said the only thing left for them to do to complete their work and seal the lid was to "get wet" meaning they must troll the bottom of the Black Sea and find some pottery or other artifacts that match the type brought into the fertile crescent in that same time period.

Prooving these "black sea people" were the ones who brought the flood story and their cultural influence to the Pre Sumerian folks.

Coragyps

Hasn't National Geographic had a piece about remote sensing finding a house ruin down near Pitman and Ryan's paleoshoreline? Or did I dream that?
For all that, the oceans worldwide rose 160 meters or so at the end of the last glaciation, 12,000 years back or so. This translates to MANY miles of continental shelf going under water. What's to keep oral traditions, worldwide, from reaching back that far?

Marduk

Hasn't National Geographic had a piece about remote sensing finding a house ruin down near Pitman and Ryan's paleoshoreline? YES
Or did I dream that? No

For all that, the oceans worldwide rose 160 meters or so at the end of the last glaciation, 12,000 years back or so. This translates to MANY miles of continental shelf going under water. What's to keep oral traditions, worldwide, from reaching back that far
They probably do, flood stories abound around the world, but it seems like the Black Sea one is the origin of the Gilgamesh/Noah version.

Jayhawker Soule

Actually, <a href="http://college3.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2001/01/09/639782.xml" target="_blank">This Site </a>may be closer to the truth -- particularly:

Amos

I am surprised that nobody, including atheists, can accept that the flood stories were myth and never real in history.

lpetrich

Finally, something I can agree with Amos on. Some people are simply too literal-minded.

This Black-Sea-flooding theory I find far from convincing. First, it was not a flood that happened in only a few weeks or months; it was probably something like 100 years. And a shoreline moving back 300 km (rough estimate) would mean a rate of 1 km every 4 months. Which means that this flood would have been easy to walk away from. Even 1 km/day could be walked away from.

Also, there is the problem that it took place over 4000 years before the first written records, which asks a lot of oral transmission -- especially of some event that might not seem especially remarkable.

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

Amos

That was my first reaction too. Oral tradition would never keep a historic event alive but it would sure flourish a living legend.

Notice that in my opinion all Christians should have survided the flood and if they did not they have been given a scorpion instead of a fish.

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Marduk

"For one thing, Dr. Dalley said, it is questionable that a folk memory would have persisted over more than 4,000 years."

Not sure I get the reasoning behind this statement by Steph, They sure have kept the Exodus myth alive and well for over 3000 years.
And seeing all that water come pouring down the mountain/strait would have got me running pretty fast. (they showed a computer simulation on TV it would have been a mighty awe inspiring sight, the thing legends are made of )

Amos

But the Exodus myth is also a living legend and very much alive today in America.

Remember here that the waters were parted to lead the children of Israel into the promised land where they died nonetheless from unbelief despite the manna they received from heaven through Moses.

Their problem was unbelief as in rebel, repent, rebel, repent, until they died nonetheless. Their manna was second hand through Moses and not directly from God in heaven and therefore soon to whither and could never sustain them through the following night. The allusion here is to bible reading which is not the same as inspiration from God (Jn.5:39-40) . . . wherefore they failed to mature and so remained "children of Israel" instead of "one with Israel."

The reason why they did not get inspiration from God is because the waters had been parted to lead them into the promised land. The proper way is to follow the footsteps of Jesus and walk on the waters (celestial sea) and so into the promised land.

It is living legend that is alive and well in America today because all/most born-agains are led into the promised land before their own time (which is equivalent to the parting of the waters), and must read scriptures daily to sustain their ideal of salvation and often waiver in the saved sinner complex in the rebel, repent, rebel, repent mode until they die nonetheless and their physical death must solve the paradox of their delusion.

So much for the glorification of Moses!

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Amos

Do you all agree that Moses was like a protestant in Judaism or would that be considered hijacking the tread?

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>